Mating a VW engine, frame, and transmission

[wingrider]

Hey all,

I'm not sure if this is the right spot to put this, but here goes...

I thought I had my project bike all figured out, I was going to use a 3 cyl Yanmar out of a John Deere garden tractor, but after looking under the hood of my Dad's VW Beetle TDI, it made me wonder how well a motor like that would work in the bike I'm thinking of building. the VW 1.9L would have significantly more power than the Yanmar, even after turning the Yanmar up. I realize it'll be a bit wider (and possibly taller) than the Yanmar, but I'm starting to think maybe this is the way to go.

What I am wondering is how I can mount a standard motorcycle transmission to this motor. I know the conversion has been done with VW diesels, but it seems most are automatic, or CVT transmissions. I still want to bang gears with this bike. Would something like the Ultima transmission work with this, or would I be designing my own transmission?

Anyone help me out? Thanks a bunch!

[TedV]

there have been some VW longitudinal powered bikes using the VW transmission. Shifting an H patern shifter might be interesting problem to solve. You might be able to fabricate an addapter to run power thru a shaft drive style motorcycle transmission. I have looked into how to use a VW DSG automatic-manual in a bike, very heavy and lots of electronics to make it work.

the dieselfighter bike and some others in europe have mounted engines transverse. They use belts or chain to drive the motorcycle style transmission. My concern is the side loading on the crank with such a setup. 4 cyl VW in USA have 5 main bearing caps so the crank is supported well. The torque from the VW motor will destroy an ultima. I have a built 1.6 IDI turbo diesel in the autocross car, I sheared 2nd gear in the factory transmission ( ok it has been used and abused for years) My 1.9 TDi motor with slight warming of tune had 200 Ft Lbs at the wheels at 1800 rpm. I can let out the clutch without touching the throttle and while letting it idle keep shifting up to 5th gear. Yes, these motors have torque. TDi will have LOTS of wiring and computer control issuses to work out. Older 1.6 or 1.9 IDI ( indirect injected - has the precup in the head) with mechanical pump only needs one wire to stop solinoid, and wires to glow plugs if you want em to work.

Those are the only solutions at the moment. Never know, some other way may appear next year. Can you design and build a custom transmission? My diesel project is on hold until what I want for a transmission is available. Until then I am playing with my CB250 and F650GS Dakar

Do keep in mind the VW4cyl are Heavy, like over 300 Lbs heavy. put that on a steel frame able to handle the vibration and you will have a bike in the 800 to 1000 lbs range.


Note: this info is for the USA where Lbs is weight not money, and kilograms is used when talking about a drug bust.

[wingrider]

TedV,

Thank you very much for the reply! I am still learning about the various VW diesels that were available here in the US. It would certainly be a whole lot easier to have an engine that doesn't need a computer. I just am uneducated in the pre TDI diesels...need to keep reading I guess!

I had wondered how much torque an Ultima transmission would take...having never run them, I couldn't say. If there is that much power, I don't know if a normal shaft drive bike will hold up either.

The bike it would be going in would be similar to an older Goldwing, or Valkyrie style frame. I'm guessing the 6 cylinder motor weighs in the same basic range to what a 4 cylinder VW motor would. Having ridden Wings for a while, you get used to a lot of weight.

I don't have the capabilites to design and fabricate a transmission...which is why I was fearing if I did have to build one, the project wouldn't go forward.

[bhtooefr]

Honestly, I wouldn't worry about the computer. A good chiptuner can remove the requirement for it to be married to the instrument cluster, and then you're good to go. (Or, just go for a 99 or older TDI.)

The issues you're going to have, I think, will be related to packaging and gearboxes.

You'll basically be building the bike around the engine, I suspect.

And, as for the gearbox... maybe a RWD car gearbox? Not sure what the best bet would be there.

If you're going to go in the VW family, the best bet is probably the 1.2L 3-cylinder TDI used in the Lupo 3L, in Europe. Scott_DeWitt on TDIClub can help you get that, and the most appropriate ECU for the job. Then, you've got a motor that's not as long, so transverse becomes practical, or longitudinal becomes more practical, and it doesn't have quite as much gearbox-shredding torque. In any case, you're gonna have fun with the gearbox - everything that will bolt to the VW engine family is either meant for transverse FWD, which won't work, or is meant for longitudinal FWD, which also won't work.

[pietenpol2002]

Here's an example of a VW diesel Golf engine bike (if you haven't seen it previously). Certainly one of my favorites. Obviously utilizes the stock gearbox with differential welded up. From the Hamm Diesel Bike meet.
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1350/134 ... c008_o.jpg
http://www.flickr.com/photos/10983301@N ... 0/sizes/o/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/10983301@N ... 1/sizes/o/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFyPyA5vVSc

[wingrider]

Thanks for the replies so far! The bike that is in the links was one I saw on you tube, so I knew it could be done in some form...still would really like a standard motorcyle gear box if I can swing it.

I simply am not familiar with the gear boxes used on the big V-twins to know how much torque they can take.

The 3 cylinder VW certainly looks like it would be the best fit, I'm still hoping I can mount it transversely, regardless of what motor I end up with.

Thanks again for the help so far!

[Catman]

Hi,Would anyone know how to get in contact with the builder of this VW bike,trying to get some info on the rear final drive unit..
Thanks,Catman

[coachgeo]

Hi,Would anyone know how to get in contact with the builder of this VW bike,trying to get some info on the rear final drive unit..
Thanks,Catman

Click on his name and thru the next screen send him a PM. Hard to say if he will respond since it looks like his last activity here was June of 2011. Thusly maybe an email as well.

[Catman]

Thanks,I'm not sure who the builder is or his name.

[pietenpol2002]

Greetings Catman. Great to have you on the board and can't wait to follow your project. Regarding the question in your intro as to final drive, the VW bike you noted uses an industrial/agricultural right angle gearbox of unknown ratio (allegedly bought from a farm supply store). Certainly simple enough. And the ratio should be easy enough to figure. Aluminum case would be ideal and the manufacturer would have the torque ratings available. The only apparent mod is the left hand cover made from a 2 cycle head. Undoubtedly, those fins aid the cooling - ha! If I'm not mistaken, that particular bike and it's twin were build by Stephan Sanderse from Holland. You might try PMing Sphere who posts here regularly, for a contact on Stephan.

And if your engine/trans came with both half shafts, you can use the spare for your trailer mount knuckle as seen to the right in the picture. His almost appears to be a drive shaft - a little overkill I might think.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/10983301@N ... 1/sizes/o/

[Catman]

Thanks Pietenpol,
I thought it was industrial and got 2 off of ebay hoping to get one to work but no good there's just too many out there to narrow it down,i send Stephen a message maybe he will get back to me.Thanks for your help.

[zarquon]

Unfortunately it's pretty hard to contact Stephan, cause he usually don't use computers.
He is a genius in building bikes but has no EMail.
But I can tell you the "right angle gearbox" at the rear wheel has a 1:1 ratio.
Looks like the cooling fins were not needed, cause the second "Dieselross" did not have them.

I took the following picture when I met him last year in france. You'll find some more in the photostream on flickr.


Krümmerkunst am Dieselross von bigzark auf Flickr

[Catman]

Thanks Zarquon ,
I contacted his friend Sphere and hopefully he will be able to get me the info needed.

[Sphere]

Thanks Zarquon ,
I contacted his friend Sphere and hopefully he will be able to get me the info needed.

Sorry, I can't help with this. I don't even know him. But surely you should be able to take the picture of the bike to a relevant shop and point out what you want.

[pietenpol2002]

Another example of a right angle drive. This from a Polish build where I believe the power is supplied by a 3 cylinder Diahatsu diesel Charade engine/trans combo. Again, appears to be a simple bevel gear box. Just as Stephan's was reportedly purchased from an agricultural supply store, the original paint of this gearbox is suspiciously close to the color of the German Deutz farm equipment. But, who knows?

http://images37.fotosik.pl/1174/dd4bda8a36cb8cef.jpg
http://images45.fotosik.pl/1213/2bbc4e2f46b10636.jpg
http://images39.fotosik.pl/1195/3d91d4b8e585b19f.jpg

[zarquon]

Yeah, this is the build from Artur Maciej Kamiński from poland.

You can find some more images from his bike: http://www.fotosik.pl/u/adael/album/648014

And some videos on youtube as well: http://youtu.be/uHMLsbOst8Y

When you think you can see two bikes, you are not completely wrong. After building it for testing all the parts without a proper paint job he started a optimized rebuild of the bike.

Looking around for some bevel gears I quickly could identify some manufactures.

http://www.atek.de/atek_2011/index.php/en/
http://www.zae.de/products/bevel-gear-units.html
http://www.maedler.de/Product/1643/1331 ... /2000.aspx
http://www.assag.ch/en/index.cfm?treeId=282

I'm pretty sure there is nobody out here, that want's to buy one those regularly. I don't think you can get them cheap. You just got to have them, or find them somewhere as an used agricultural part or something. Yes the original paint looks like Deutz farm equipment

[Catman]

Thanks for all the help and pictures that gives me some more places to look for angle drive,also i never saw the pictures of the bike built in poland.I'll keep progress posted on here,anymore information anybody comes across please let me know,it is all greatly appriciated.

[coachgeo]

need a shaft drive set up? I hear that is not to hard to come by. Sometimes not too expensive on Ebay and Craigslist too was told. Apparently they show up for sale by either dealers or bike owners who have their bike converted to a Trike. Most common available would be Honda Goldwing if I recall the conversation correctly.

Out of curiosity just checked Ebay USA. There are six of them on there now different makes.

[bean juice]

Another option to consider: There are many Japanese made bikes that have transverse engines and are shaft drive. In these bikes there is a bevel gear at the output of the transmission that usually has a ratio of between 1:3 and 1:1.1. These are referred to as the middle drive gear set or middle bevel gears and usually come in a separate housing that is smaller and made of aluminum so much lighter than some of the agricultural alternatives being discussed. Also they are rated for the conastnt acceleration and rotational speeds of motorcycles (industrial boxes can suffer from high drag forces at elevated rpm’s due to the use of heaver seals, and oil levels that run a much as 1/3 of lower portion of the gears through 90w gear oil). They are also designed to run this way for 100K+ miles.
Oh, and on EBay they are cheap. There are many options and good ones are $40 to $100

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Yamaha-XS750-XS ... db&vxp=mtr

Or if you want something even more robust you can use a set from a Kawasaki ZG1400 which is what I’m using on the Bonneville bike (in my own custom housing)


Peter~

below info added by moderater (coachgeo) since the ebay link will be of use only very limited time. Info is from Ebay ad linked above:

Yamaha XS750 XS 750 #2317 Middle Drive / Bevel Gears / Driven Gears (Sold by the Cycle Barn, http://myworld.ebay.com/thecyclebarn1?_ ... 7675.l2559 )

the items for sale are the 1977 Yamaha XS 750 - Middle Drive Gears. They are in good usable condition. They came from a motorcycle that showed just over 25,000 miles on the odometer. Everything shown in the photos is included and in good usable condition. (LJ 12)

[coachgeo]

Thanks for knowledge mining in our old threads. Especially thanks for adding new input. Highly interesting information!!! This knowledge may open up many new ideas

[coachgeo]

Another option to consider: ....

Or if you want something even more robust you can use a set from a Kawasaki ZG1400 which is what I’m using on the Bonneville bike (in my own custom housing)

Does the design of this Kawasaki unit nessessitate a custom housing in most all applications?

[bean juice]

Sort of. The Kawasaki housing is designed to bolt to the side of the engine cases but unlike the XS750 is designed to be more esthetically integrated to the engine. My application has a number of requirements that add a level of complication that most people here won’t need. In my situation running a BMW style single sided rear swing arm has big advantages for me so part of my design is a rear spindle/axel that can accept a BWM R1150rt rear wheel. My housing also integrates the rear brake caliper mount as well as a mount for the ABS sensor which will be used to monitor rear wheel slip on the salt.
A number of other bikes (like the Honda CB900) had middle drive gears in housings that would work as final drives. The other place to look is Quads or 4 wheelers. A number of them had motors that were essentially repurposed air cooled motorcycle engines and they slapped on a middle drive gear box where the transmission output shaft once had a sprocket. Just doing a search on eBay for “middle bevel” comes up with a bunch of stuff. You’ll have to do your own research on ratios though.


p~

[Rhynri]

This is exactly what I am looking to do. The bike i picked was the FJ1200, as it houses factory a very tall and wide air cooled 1200cc torque monster of an engine, which shakes the ground at idle and is similar weight to the 1.6L volkswagen diesel I am looking to source (stock engine is 240+ lbs dry) The man I contacted at GEX gave the dimension of their GX 10853TH rebuilt VW motor as 23" high x 18" long x 13" wide which should fit although it may require modifying the fuel tank, which is acceptable. The biggest issue is drivetrain. The irony is that the stock drivetrain would work just fine if it wasn't built into the engine. The frame also has the convenience of being very modular should modifications be necessary. There is a thread on it here, which I should update with some of this information!

[gearhead1951]

Remove trans from engine plus flywheel . Mount engine in frame UJM style . Set trans behind engine with same orientation as when it was attached to engine . Mfg plate to bolt to trans that incorporates a bearing support for the shaft that will have the flywheel & clutch on one end and the driven sprocket on the other . Mount a sprocket to the end of the crank and create supports for a jack shaft to fit across the back of the engine with a sprocket at each end . Connect both sets of sprockets with chain and then run your rear wheel drive from which ever half shaft you feel works best for you !!

This is very simplified and would really be a lot of work , but you would narrow down the engine enough to be practical and be using the trans that was designed for the engine you have chosen for the project !!