Ruggerfields gearbox

[Stuart]

As some of you know the Ruggerfield recently suffered when the gearbox seal sprang a leak and dumped all the grease/oil out. As a result the gearbox went crunch on me and I can no longer select 4th.
The bike is going into the shop to have the box fixed and refurbished but in an effort to keep costs down I've dismantled it part way so the mechanic can get the insides of the box out ok. That meant exposing the sprocket, something which I wasn't quite sure was possible without removing the engine.
As you can see from the shots it was and I managed to remove the bearing carrier assy that sat behind the clutch. It's a nice piece of work, machined from a solid block of ally and carrying two bearings not one. It even has a little breather pipe on top.

[Diesel Dave]

Well after much hard work old Sluggy's gearbox was completed it's rebuild today.

I replaced the bearings with new sealed European ones and layshaft bushes with Hitchcocks Phosphor Bronze ones.

The casing bush is dead easy to replace but the other end runs inside the kickstarter shaft and this is a real pig to remove, I had to cut it twice with a broken hacksaw blade and chisel out the reminants. The new bush was pressed in with the vice but turned out to be almost 1/2mm undesized for the shaft. I had to bore it out on the lathe to fit the shaft.








Still, all done now and my own special mix of engine oil and grease mixed to the consistency of elephant poo.

Hopefully that's it for another 92,000 miles

Dave

[sbrumby]

First of all can someone tell me how you get these big pictures on the forum? I find going through imaje shack thumbnails is a real pain and not much use when trying to explain anything.
You might find something I made for a leyland engine useful when trying to remove blind bushes. Get hold of a tap that will cut a thread in the bush, screw a stud into the bush, put a large spacer over the stud, put on a flat piece of steel with a hole in for the stud, couple of washers plenty of oil and a nut, tighten and you should be lucky.

[Crazymanneil]

When you go to post you scroll down the screen and you will see a tab marked "Upload attachment". Click here and then browse to your photo. When thats done click "Add the file" and you are done (may take a while to upload).

You can attach 3 images per post. The upload limit per image is currently 1mb but do try to think about resizing the file or saving in a compressed format like .jpg to save a bit of server bandwidth. When you post the images should show up as thumbnails that go fullscreen when you click them (if they are big). If you still have problems give me a PM.

Neil

[Stuart]

My Mechanic (Tony of http://www.themotorcycleworkshop.co.uk/ ) was well chuffed that I supplied a refurb kit of sealed bearing etc so I can use normal oil. I've still gotta go back when he opens her up to order the busted bits. Pretty sure some cogs got chewed up. But we'll find out later in the week I think

[Diesel Dave]

I'll bet the bearings are fine, the layshaft bushes are shagged; as the kickstarter has been removed the pawl will be fine too.

The cogs will be fine but the layshaft will be fubarred at the kickstarter end where it fits in the bushing. (the other end has a replaceable surface)

Always replace the indent unit as this is rarely hardened properly and if it popps out of the holder then a gearbox lock will be the result.

Would be a good time to fit that close ratio gearset................

Dave

[Stuart]

I did wonder about this 5 speed setup that was supposedly developed to go in the 4 speed box but I didn't ask aboout that. The gap between 3rd & 4th was a pain on the Hatz 350 but just not a problem on the 850. All that torque I guess
I'll try and make sure everything that's replaceable is renewed

[Stuart]

Well, my mechanic gave me a call today and said come look at the gearbox damage. Ouch See what no oil does. New sleeve and shaft we think (Sorry about the dodgy camera phone piccy).

[Anorak_ian]

Stuart, make sure you replace the two bushes on the left hand side of the lay shaft as well as the right bush (kick start).
There are kits available but I have yet to see a kit with all three bushes in them.
If your paying to have it done and all that.
5 speed for the 4 speed box? Wow they haven't made that since the early 50's. Vincent owners will be over the moon. Any idea if they will be making trials gears for it?

Sam, thanks for posting the info, I have to drill two small bore holes down each side of the kick start bush and gently widen them up and prize them apart with a small electrical screw driver. This works but it's a pain, so I'll give your advice a go next time.

Dave, is your box Indian or British? Only I have found that the main shaft differs in size at the small bearing end, I didn't think that the lay shaft was a different size (I'll get my micrometer out tomorrow). Or did you mushroom it? The ident has to be aligned up before you do anything else on the rebuild, this way you know that it's perfectley in line with the notch on the gear operator. If you do it later in the build you can’t properly tell where the blade ends up and it can chip and crack etc.

[Stuart]

Ian,
I'm trusting the kit has all the parts needed. Fingers crossed it works

I just phoned the mechanic and passed on what Dave told me about the older shafts (1990's) having a tendency to do this and the newer ones (2000 onwards) being better due to the new machinery in the factory. I also asked him to order up those other bushes as well so I'm hoping that will sort it

[Stuart]

Chaps,
the good news is that tomorrow I get to bring my bike back from the shop. The bad news is that they can't fix my gearbox.
I ordered and received a new main shaft and sleeve from Hitchcocks and they don't fit. Without having the thing here in front of me right now the best I can explain from what the mechanic said is this.
Apparently the sleeve is of a differing length sprocket side and it's keyways are of a different depth.
Also the main shaft has a differing diameter on the kickstart side and will not fit the bearing supplied with the refurb kit. The bearing itself is slightly too large to fit into the case on that side too.
So, what appears to be a standard 4 speed box isn't. It's different from the Indian Bullet one and I am being advised that it is probably a variation on it. Very possibly an older English version.
Does anyone know of an authority on these kind of things? I have made a few phone calls to no avail. I'm waiting on one email.
When I get the bike back I may look for some identification numbers.
Any help appreciated and thanks to Diesel Dave for some already given and quoted here.

[Anorak_ian]

It's a British box that you have, I'll bet my nuts on it.
I have worked on loads of Enfield boxes and the one thing that separates the British from the Indian is the small Bearing size (main shaft kick start end). There are a few other bits that are different also.
I understand the difference in length of sleeve, the Royal Enfield twin had a longer sleeve than the bullet, and the model G had an even shorter sleeve. Most parts look the same, but are not exactly the same.
We / you have to determine what the box came off to re build it properly, an off the shelf Indian box would be nice but we don't know if it would fit the rest of your bike. So you may have to use the same spec Brit box.

I have an Indian box in bits waiting for a rebuild; it can be finished and posted on Monday.

Also I have a British box that I can make available to you. All I need from you is measurements of what you have there (main shaft length, sleeve length), and I can replace it with a rebuilt version of the original by the end of next week.

Of course what ever box, it will be with the best bushes, bearings and seals.

Let me know what you think.

Ian

[Anorak_ian]

Almost forgot to say 2002 onwards mainshaft sleave and sprockets went metric, if your sprocket is Brit or pre 2002 Indian your sprocket will not fit the main shaft sleave.
You can get around your bearing problem if you use a new indian middle end cover, it will fit the brit box then you can use your new main shaft and sleave but you will need a 2002 on sprocket to match.

Hope ive helped.
Ian

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/OE-ROYAL-ENFIELD- ... 7C294%3A50

[Anorak_ian]

Another way around your main shaft bearing not fitting is to take it to an engerneering shop to get the bearing end turned down to the same size as your old shaft. But this may cost the same as getting a new case mid end cover, unless you have a mate with a good work shop.

[Stuart]

Great stuff Ian
I'll get the bike back later today and take it from there as far as measuring things goes.

OK Ian, I've emailed you some large and hopefully detailed pictues and measurements. Let me know what you think.

Cheers
Stuart

Here's the differences:
Fig 1: shows both the ‘Old English’ version damaged sleeve against the new Indian one which won’t fit. Notice the keyway length is way different. My old one has grooves about 42mm (1” 6/12) long whereas the new Indian one is only 30mm (1” 2/10)

Fig 3: shows my damaged main shaft and sleeve together. This main shaft is 288 mm in length (11” 3/10) unlike the Indian one which is smaller at 280mm. My damaged sleeve is about 6" long.

Fig 5 shows the damaged English parts against the Indian parts assembled into the cluster. That’s as the shop gave them back to me.
The Diameter of the main shaft at the kick start side is 15.9mm on my English version. It is 17mm on the new Indian version.

My box has some numbrs on it. 4741 and HDL 456 if this helps ID it.

[Anorak_ian]

Hi Stuart,

I'm sure this is what you are looking for.
http://www.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/li ... php?pid=70
7th item down
MAINSHAFT GEAR CLUSTER - LATE TWINS (late meaning 1959 on)

What you will need to do is ask Hitchcock's to measure the mainshaft they have, if it is the same length then that's what you need.
I have taken a look at my spares and my main shafts have chunks out of them and they are only 280mm long, the main shaft in my Brit box is for a scissor clutch and will not fit.
The right sleeve I do have but it's worn, this is the same as Indian sleeves made up to 1990's what you have bought is 2002
onwards.

See if you can get Hitchcock's to swap the parts and your in business (get them to measure the main shaft first though).

All the best
Ian



Almost forgot to say, don't forget to use threadlock or bearing seal on the lay shaft bush before you fit it to the case, you don't want to have to strip it all again just to fix a leek. Too much like hard work.

[Diesel Dave]

Stu,

Given that Brit twin gearboxes are only ever going to get increasingly rare and expensive....

Please give some thought to replacing with an Indian 4 speeder as this will ensure spares availability for some time to come.

Even my little 7Hp Greaves engine managed to destroy the bearings in a 5 speed box in 75k miles, the 4 speeder is much more simple to work on and replace worn parts.

Besides as you have an Indian frame the twin gearbox must be out of align with the rear sprocket as these were designed to work with the later Brit open frame, perhaps this is why you can see a melted outer sleeve? as sideways pressure would be a killer to the gearbox.

Dave

[Stuart]

Cheers Guys
I shall be on the phone to them Monday. Typical, they're shut on Saturday
Ian, yes, I compared that item and it's looking like the right one. I'll get them to measure up before I buy or swop for it.
As regards loctiting the lay bush I think the mechanic already fitted that Sprocket side and so I hope he has sealed it ok

Dave, appreciate what you are saying but changing the box is not a quick job otherwise I would just buy another. In time it may have to be sorted but I've too much on my plate just now. I just want it back on the road asap. I think the problem was A lack of lubrication and B doing the clutch up too tight. I am gonna use some already made PTFE washers and some locktite.

It's weird but the nut Colin Clarke made to hold the sprocket on is extended to sit inside the first carrier bearing. All good there but it was undone when I got in there. And trying to screw it onto the shaft, well, it won't go on, like it is the wrong thread. I'll get the guys I know in the machine shop to investigate that later I think.

I'll keep you informed of my progress or lack of it

[Anorak_ian]

Hi Dave, early twins also used the same frame as the Indian one.
What has happened with Stuart’s box is down to a lot of use, I have come across this in other boxes but not anywhere so drastic. This happens when the small bearing wears badly.
If Stuart swapped his Brit box for an Indian box the main shaft would not reach the mod that the builder had made. But yes Indian boxes are better as they have evolved.
As I have stated before the Indian bearings are no where near as good as European bearings, that's why Hitchcock's sell them.
Hitchcock's have always got these Brit boxes for sale, I think they were £100 but you have to rebuild them.
The sprockets would not be out of line, as it's just the main shaft that's longer, being from a twin. You'll probably find that the builder bought the box / bike from a guy who said its all 100%, when it was next to deaths door. God knows I've been sold some junk in the past by people who stated the kit was good.

All Stuart needs to do is rebuild with the two parts from Hitchcock's and fit good bearings and proper seals, the box he has may not have had a seal (although one can be fitted) and only had felt.

My own box is an old twin Brit box, it works fine with Indian parts as long as I don't try to fit metric 2002 parts.

[Stuart]

And there's me thinking that sealed bearings would seal it up ok I'll have to get Hitchcocks to send me some when they supply me with this shaft (hopefully) and a proper bearing for the kickstart side.

[Diesel Dave]

Sealed bearings don;t do a great deal in the box -the big drive side one has an oil seal outside it anyway and the 'tother end has a cap over it with just the pushrod sticking through.

The most likely place for oil to escape is between the shafts to the sprocket end which is why there is a felt seal inside the sprocket nut - but even if it leaked it would be onto the chain.

Right Stu - you have a few weeks so crack on Eh!

Dave

[Stuart]

Yes, crack on I shall Felt washer inside the sprocket nut? Hmm I shall pay close attention to any hole I see and hope I plug them all if I ever get that far

Stuart

[Anorak_ian]

Sealed bearings don;t do a great deal in the box -the big drive side one has an oil seal outside it anyway.

The primary reason for the seals on the bearings is to keep its oil in the race and keep foreign parts out of the race. If you use a sealant around the bearing (out side and shaft) the box oil shouldn't pass through (but don't bank on it as it is difficult keeping sealant on the shaft during rebuild), having said that never omit using an oil seal. Personally I get a better one than the Enfield job.
The case that Stuart has is an older version that used a felt pad next to the big main bearing and not an oil seal; anyone who has a box like this should ditch the pad and replace it with a seal from inside the case. There should be a small recess area past the bearing designed for the pad, the seal should fit perfectly in it, use the Enfield seal with this case as aftermarket seals are slightly wider.

The most likely place for oil to escape is between the shafts to the sprocket end which is why there is a felt seal inside the sprocket nut.

You are right, which is why Enfield has made the rather nice 2002 nut (imperial thread) which has an oil seal on it (My old box has one). This will help keep the black stuff back, but it will escape between the gap in the sprocket and the nut. I shall try to explain why:
The seal does not seal against the shaft, it seals against the top of the spacer that goes between the sprocket and bearing (pre 2002), so if oil gets past the middle of the bearing (out side of the sleeve), it will by pass the oil seal and follow the sleeve down to the sprocket, and drip (this is why I always use a sealant on the bearing, in side where the shaft goes and case). This is why the design change in 2002, no longer is the spacer used, and there's a rubber ring behind the sprocket, the seal now seals against the sprocket shaft. The spacer is the problem.

[Anorak_ian]

Ok, now I'm being a total anorak.

Stuart, just a thought but, if you keeped the sleave that you just bought, buy a new 2002 sprocket, rubber ring, 2002 nut and seal, it will save any potential oil leaks.

Of course you will still have to get the main shaft.

[Stuart]

Ok, I've opened her up. There appears to be a seal (new) fitted sprocket side for the main bearing there. I loosely put the bearing in as you can see in the shot. There are a few felt washers in the refurb kit so that should help. Ian, I do have 15 teath on that end cog (phew) so no worries there. There does appear to be a problem with the kick start mechanism clouting the middle case. It has taken out a bit of the case on the outer edge of the smaller bearing that end. I don't think that will be too much of a problem if I put some seal there just in case.
Dave, I see what you mean about there not being much in there.

[Anorak_ian]

Oh my god it's filthy! You’re supposed to prep the patient before surgery.
I use a kitchen sink size bowl full of white spirit, leave the whole lot in there for a while, that gets the crud of .

Is that bronze bush new? It looks like it has a fair bit of wear at the end, or is that just the photo?

This is what happens when the kick start is bolted on the shaft too far forward, by the time the right leg has gone down to the bottom of it's stroke, the shaft inside bangs in to the case and eventually exposes the small bearing. Basically the shaft's gone around to far. It should be ok unless there is no hair line crack around the bearing housing, tap out the bearing and take a gander.
As far as loosing oil is concerned, this shouldn’t be a problem as you still have the cover to put on the other side, just use sealant in side the bearing housing, there’s no point using it in side the box as it will just com off and lodge it's self in to something important (open bearing is usual), unless it has a crack it should be ok.

[Stuart]

I think your seeing some shims at the end of that bronze bush there. That is the new one the mechanic put it. Not sure if he put loctite round it but I saw the original come out and it was in tight.
That damage must have come from the time it had a kickstart then Because I've never seen one on it
Debating whether to get that smaller bearing from Hitchcocks or the local supplier. The local guy is still pissed at me knowing more about HTD belt lengths than he Didn't help either of us though at the time

Stuart

[Stuart]

Ok, I've ordered up the shaft that Ian pointed out. They compared the length and it seemed to be the english equivalant of 288mm as opposed to the Indian 280mm. I also ordered a kickstart end sealed bearing, a bearing seal and a nut to hold the sprocket on. They didn't have the shaft to hand to measure but were going from details they had down. Hopefully it'll come soon as they dispatch the same day. They couldn't do a swap with the shaft I already bought. Shame that.
I shall use up the time I have between now and delivery just familiarising myself with the workings and trying to figure where these springs go

[Diesel Dave]

Springs???

Kickstarter one is the curley one secured by the bearing cap bolt.

The larger of the 2 figure 8 ones goes at the back of the ratchet.

Now if you had taken it apart in the first place...............

I always found it easier to put the big bearing on the shaft and then warm the box with a blowlamp so the bearing fits easily in the casing.

If your fitting sealed bearings then the oil flingers become surplus but you may need to watch the spacing.

The nut that secures the mainshaft on the cover end has a LEFT HAND Thread! - and it must have a tab washer to secure it.

Best of luck
Dave

[Anorak_ian]

The blow lamp will melt the seal as it is in side the box before the bearing, as it's an old type case.
It may help if you do it the other way and bung the bearing in the freezer in a plastic bag, so it contracts a bit. Oh and use your old bearing over the top of the new one before you start knocking it in for real, so you don't damage the new bearing (we have all been there and done that, I'm sure ).

Yes your right about that oil flinger under that cover Dave, I always bung it on the bench grinder and grind it way down until it's just a spacer, or the lip part will dig into the rubber bearing seal, and you can't turn it upside down either as it will dig into the cover . The thrower that goes in side the box (before the mid case goes on) is flat and wouldn't do any damage and can be left as it is (unless you can see otherwise).

Some shafts do not have the tab washer groove cut in to them, eek! So what you have to do there is make sure you have plenty of bearing seal around that nut, also once tight on the shaft, I use a dot punch on the side of the nut and put a few deep dots close to the treads.

The diagrams can be found at Hitchcock's under the "parts book online" page.