The Honda/Ruggerini is on the road

LocomotiveBreath · Post by **LocomotiveBreath** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 2:33 pm

Hello all, hope everyone has been well as I've been to busy building and now riding in the last month.

I started bending(with a rosebud torch tip) the down tubes on Sept. 13th of last month, and on October 1st she had the CHP inspection and now registered and licensed in California as a Diesel fueled and powered motorcycle, and today she has over 1,400 miles on the clock.

I took it to LA to RB Racing and let Bob take her for a test spin, See: http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/lsr21/supercharged.html (scroll down to Part #4)

I'm having more fun than a barrel of monkeys and the Centrifugal Clutch works wonderful. But I have to be honest, I miss shifting gears.

She will run 70mph @ 3600rpm all day long, I've had her to 83mph @ 4300rpm and she was still pulling. best mpg has been around 90, if I keep her around 45-50, I'm sure it will acheave the 100mpg mark with ease.

Post by **Stuart** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 5:00 pm

Great going, Dave

Nice to see another bike born into unto us. Wondered what you'd been up to lately. I should have known

balboa_71 · Post by **balboa_71** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 5:28 pm

Very professional looking job Dave!!! Let us know how the clutching performs over time, thanks.

Cris

Diesel Graham · Post by **Diesel Graham** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 6:32 pm

Hi,
just curious about that clutch, if you are doing 3600rpm at around 70, how does it pull away from standing? is there a lot of slip up to a point?

Graham.

balboa_71 · Post by **balboa_71** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 9:49 pm

DG,
That's an interesting question. I didn't think to ask what the total gear reduction ratio is on Dave's bike. I know he has a industrial type centrifugal clutch that is much better that your run of the mill, garden variety, mini-bike/ go-kart, type clutches I've grown so fond of.... Anyways, I prefer a "low" gear when I can get it, as there is no shortage of weight to move on my end

Cris

oilburner · Post by **oilburner** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 11:30 pm

Well done, Dave. The RD211 looks like it was meant for a bike! I like the scrambler style high pipe.

Since the bike can easily run 70mph without fuss, it would be great if over time you could keep track of fuel consumption, not necessarily at 70 mph mind you, but say at an average 50 or 55 or 60 mph. Using the Ruggerini BSFC figures, you could accurately calculate how much power is required at a given speed for a bike of a given weight, and could come up with a real world baseline for speed /horsepower requirements. Your bike appears to confirm 20 hp good for a solid 70 mph.

Avery

oilburner · Post by **oilburner** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 3:29 pm

I crunched some numbers for Dave's MPG vs Performance

Using Dave's figures:
- 25.215 rear tire diameter
- 70 mph at 3600 rpm
- estimated 90 mpg at 45-50 mph

and

- 1 US gallon of diesel weighs 6.9605 lbs

and

- BSFC (brake specific fuel consumption) figures from the Ruggerini website

I came up with the following:

1. The overall ratio of Dave's bike is 3.857:1 at speed and the engine is turning about 2571 rpm @ 47.5 mph
2. At 47.5 mph and 90 mpg US (108 mpg imperial) the bike is burning 3.6735 gallons per hour.
3. At 2445 rpm (47.5 mph) the Ruggerini burns .3924 lbs of fuel per horsepower per hour (intermittent hp output)
4. 3.6735 divided by .3924 equals:

==========================
9.36 hp output at 47.5 mph
==========================

Based on comments by owners of the 10hp singles, Dave's performance figures appears to be in the ballpark of the speed / horsepower numbers of the 10 hp bikes.

Crunching some numbers, here's what I believe the fuel consumption will be for 70 mph (3600 rpm). The figures will be slightly higher than calculated since Ruggerini doesn't provide BSFC for continuous hp output:

1. best - theoretical required hp (based on cube root of hp * 30 formula)
2. worse - continuous power output mode 20 hp @ 3600 rpm
3. worst - intermittent power output mode 21.25 hp @ 3600 rpm

- at 3600 rpm engine burns .4189 lbs fuel per hp per hour intermittent output

- worst mpg (21.25 intermittent hp output)
- burns 1.2788 gals US
- 54.735 mpg US / 65.7 mpg imperial

- better mpg (20hp continuous hp output)
- burns 8.378 gals US
- 58.2 mpg @ 20hp / 69.8 mpg imperial

- best mpg (theoretical 13 hp) [rider lying over tank, naked]
- burns .7823 gals US
- 89.5 mpg @ 13 hp / 107.5 mpg imperial

FWIW Avery

Rick · Post by **Rick** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 4:23 pm

best mpg (theoretical 13 hp) [rider lying over tank, naked]
- burns .7823 gals US

You WILL be sure to post a pic of that, wontcha?

balboa_71 · Post by **balboa_71** » Sun Oct 14, 2007 1:02 am

Avery,
How in your message, item #2:

2. At 47.5 mph and 90 mpg US (108 mpg imperial) the bike is burning 3.6735 gallons per hour.

Can the bike burn 3.6735 gallons per hour? Is this a decimal issue?

Anyways, I'm running a 13 to 1 (approx.) total reduction ratio to get my butt, bike, and decorations off to a good start..... Where did I go wrong?

Cris

oilburner · Post by **oilburner** » Sun Oct 14, 2007 4:09 pm

Oops. That should be 3.6735 *pounds* of fuel per hour.

Geez, 13:1? How did you arrive at that? You're chain drive, right? How about a separate post to discuss.

Avery

oldbmw · Post by **oldbmw** » Sun Oct 14, 2007 6:29 pm

Avery Frail wrote:Oops. That should be 3.6735 *pounds* of fuel per hour.

Geez, 13:1? How did you arrive at that? You're chain drive, right? How about a separate post to discuss.

Avery

Should be fine for ploughing

oilburner · Post by **oilburner** » Sun Oct 14, 2007 8:46 pm

Hehe. I had considered making a comment about stump pulling

That's about 21 mph with my 400X18 rear tire at 3600 rpm. My calculations have been for shaft drives; I haven't played with sprocket ratios etc. - there could be a different way to calculate the ratios.

balboa_71 · Post by **balboa_71** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 11:39 am

Well with Comet in low range (3 to 1 or so) x 4.375 rear ratio = 13 to 1 total reduction.

Cris

andrewaust · Post by **andrewaust** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 12:32 pm

Hi Guy's

That's a great looking ride Dave! By the looks of it you have the gearing sorted well, giving you good fuel economy and top end speed.

Excellent to see quality bikes being made.

Cheers

Andrew

oilburner · Post by **oilburner** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 9:30 pm

Anyways, I'm running a 13 to 1 (approx.) total reduction ratio to get my butt, bike, and decorations off to a good start..... Where did I go wrong?

Cris

I apologize Chris for misreading your post. If I [now] understand correctly, (you are running 10hp, right?) from a dead stop the overall ratio is 13:1 and at speed the Comet goes to 1:1, meaning the ratio becomes 4.375:1 which is about 63.6 mph at 3600 rpm. IMHO you did nothing wrong - going with a taller ratio would make starting from a dead stop harder on the clutch, reduce acceleration, and top speed. You can get more wiggle room only by having a bit more horsepower. According to the formula [cube root of hp times 30 = max mph], your gearing is optimum to get the maximum possible speed for 10hp:

cube root of 10hp = 2.154 X 30 = 64.62 mph [lying on tank, naked

]

balboa_71 · Post by **balboa_71** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 11:01 pm

Avery,
You hit the nail on the head

Yes, the 13 to 1 is my start out ratio, as you stated. Finish ratio (with Comet running 1 to 1) is 4.375 to 1. Most people gear way to high, don't know why

Cris

Diecycle · Post by **Diecycle** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 4:30 am

I have been following your diesel exploits with envy for years. You squared me away about Dnephrs when you had yours running around and now you have a bike built with a Ruggerini RD211!

I have an RD211 that I am attempting to put into a motorcycle. Did you rebuild yours? Since I am doing this from the ground up and my engine is used I thought now would be a good time to rebuild it but the guys at Ruggerini are not so forthcoming with recommendations on rebuiding.

Also, you touched on a thread I was on a while back against hydraulic drives for motorcycles, like the one on hydraulic innovations.com. I have watched your work for some time and respect your opinion. What do you see as the major downfall of hydraulic drives?

Your bike is awesome and I love the pipes. I hope to follow in your footsteps except mine will have a long and ill handling front end, unseemly bars, oversized rims, useless tires and be very loud.

LocomotiveBreath · Post by **LocomotiveBreath** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 4:55 pm

Hello all and I’d like to thank everyone for your positive comments.

I'm sorry I haven't been posting and keeping up as I'm riding allot and don't have a permanent internet connection. I'm on a wi-fi network at a local eatery at the present.

I'm looking forward to riding down to Long Beach to a bike show and swap meet on Sunday, then cruse over to Griffith Park to the 36th Sidecar rally.

I changed the countershaft sprocket ratio up 3 teeth so now my speed @3600 is 85.423mph (3.16:1 ratio) The engine pulls to 65-70mph with ease. The centrifugal clutch doesn’t like standing starts and I wouldn't recommend one with this high of gear ratio in stop-n-go traffic. But I'm enjoying it and it is working great on long freeway and side road travels.

As for my RD 211, it was new from the start, but if yours runs, leave it alone, the cost to rebuild one is expencive, good luck

As for my views on hydrostatic drives:

1. They are very dangerous unless you have the right training.
Google "hydrostatic drive dangers".

2. Hydrostatic drives build lot's of heat, major power losses and poor economy.

3. Expensive

4. Good reading here:
http://www.msha.gov/Accident_Prevention ... selife.asp

5. and again, very dangerous!

6. they leak, better get a very large assortment of o-rings, learn to pack seals and learn what chevrons are!

I believe the best route is keeping things simple, Hydrostatic drives are not simple.

Dave

Post by **Diesel Dave** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 7:45 pm

Dave, the clutch idea seems to be working well for you - congrats.

Grasstrack racers in the UK use a simple 2 speed gearbox, low for a fast start off the line and high once they are moving. The high ratio is like any old Brit gearbox whereby the input and output shafts are locked together.

I'm thinking this would be an excellent option for your type of transmission as you would have a town and highway ratio.

Whats the model of clutch you are using?

All the best - and keep piling on the miles.

Dave

Diecycle · Post by **Diecycle** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 9:10 pm

Thank you for the response. I appreciate the information.

I have also followed your work over at the racing site both when you had the dnephr and now with the hondaggurini and noticed that site included information on superchargers.

What are you feelings on a small displacement roots lobe blower for the RD211? Something along the lines of a URAI-22?

oilburner · Post by **oilburner** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 12:23 am

Hmmm. What would be the net performance gain of the URAI-22? At 32 lbs it would add almost 20 percent to the weight of the RD211 and according to the specs it would require 4.2 hp or 20 pecent of the RD211's horsepower to drive it at 10 psi (overdriven to 5275 rpm) .

I wonder if there's something lighter?

URAI info at: http://pdblowers.com/urai.htm

FWIW

Avery

Diecycle · Post by **Diecycle** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 3:14 am

Those are good points you raise about the URAI-22. There is a smaller URAI blower that can be found but parts for it are no longer made.

It was my hope to gain a slight increase in overall efficiency and an performance increase of about 20-25%. Bring the max hp to 28

Do you have any ideas?

LocomotiveBreath · Post by **LocomotiveBreath** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:19 pm

I was looking at an Aisin AMR300 or 500

See: http://www.autospeed.com/cms/article.html?&A=2147

I'd like to find a 2 speed transmission, I was told there would be one when I bought the clutches, but still no transmission yet. I am looking into building a Harley 5 speed transmission. I have sorced several 5 speed gear sets as many Harley owners are going with the new 6 speed gear sets.

I went back to the lower gear ratio of 3.84

Dave

Diecycle · Post by **Diecycle** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 4:28 pm

Wow, I didn't even know they made superchargers that tiny.

I wonder if they would work too good? There is an article about a fellow that attempted to supercharge his Hatz and kept blowing it up.

There is a college professor who worked on a grant to supercharge Hatz 2g30's for the military. I contacted him and was pleased to know the report was no longer secret and could be distributed. BUT--no one could find a copy as it was completed over 10 years ago.
That was a bummer.

Even though heavier (and currently out of production) there is a smaller URAI roots lobe blower that produces 5psi at 3500 rpm.

It was my thought that 5 psi could be enough to raise the overall efficiency and get a small hp increase, out of the RD211 but not enough to worry about damaging the engine.

There are many here more versed on this subject that I. Do you think, given the amount of Hp that is lost by turning a small URAI, that a 5psi boost would create enough of a performance increase to make it viable?

My goal was to take the RD211 (23 hp at 3600 rpm) and create a 28-30 hp at 3500 rpm

Am I dreaming?
Thank you

oilburner · Post by **oilburner** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:14 pm

An excellent source of information on turbocharging - theory, calculations, applications, pictures etc. is a book called Turbocharging by Hugh MacInnes, published by HP books, ISBN 0-89586-135-6. There is info on superchargers for comparison purposes and a considerable amount of info on diesels. The information about pressures and the calculations, which includes small displacement engines, would be applicable to any pressurizing device. There are at least two editions of the book, mine is 1984.

Avery

oilburner · Post by **oilburner** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 9:44 am

If it was my money, I'd seriously consider using an IHI RB3 turbo on the Hatz. You can probably find one at a scrap yard on a 1989 - 1993 Suzuki Forsa turbo or derivatives e.g. Chev Sprint, turbo Firefly etc. It's tiny, weighs less than 10 lbs and works with engines of 20hp or more.

Keeping in mind the limitations imposed by the air cooling of the Hatz, it still should be possible to achieve 20 - 25 percent increase in performance, more if you keep a close eye on the pyrometer.

http://blouchturbo.com/turbos/IHI_RHB3/

Avery

Diecycle · Post by **Diecycle** » Tue Nov 06, 2007 2:37 pm

Thank you for the response. In my (limited) understanding, a supercharger would work better than a turbo because of the spooling up of the turbo and the low rpms of a diesel. That sentence is a little choppy but I did not want to type it all out.

There claim to be some electric turbos out there, but I am not completely sold on their effectiveness (have yet to see one applied)

Do you think 5psi at the higher end rpm of the RD211 could gain 20-25% percent?

I am not worried too much about cooling. I will be doubling the oil capacity and could run an oil cooler if necessary.

DieselBike.net

The Honda/Ruggerini is on the road

The Honda/Ruggerini is on the road

13 to 1/off topic

speed figures

Love it

Sorry

2 speed option

good intel

good points

Superchargers and a 2 speed

tiny

good information