What is your dream bike? USA company needs your input

[royaldragon]

Hello diesel enthusiasts!
I am forming a company to produce diesel motorcycles and a three wheeled electric/diesel car in the USA. Possibly other vehicle ideas as well. All would be set up to run on veggie oil or diesel and the bikes should get a minimum of 130mpg or better(optimistically). I know it may be difficult to appeal to the public with slow bikes, so finding a way to have good speed and good milage is important( yes I know the 2 don't mix well). We need to take more action to move away from fossil fuels and to be more efficient. I plan to contribute all I can to show that transportation can be more efficient and environmentally friendly. The company(still working on a good name) will most likely be based out of California. I expect it will be a year or two before it really gets off the ground. Right now I am in the research and development phase.
Here is where you come in.
I wanted a forum that could have all ideas in one place not just for the company but for anyone interested in building a bike from scratch.
I am looking for everyone's ideas on what they think could provide the most efficient and awesome bike.
Anything you want to offer as ideas could be useful. Here are some questions to get things started.
Keep in mind, the bikes will be built from scratch.

Sincerely,
James Pierson

-What engine would best suit a bike to provide minimal vibration, excellent efficiency, cost effective, etc.
-Gear box?
-Style preferences, bobber, cruiser etc.
-Engine mounting ideas?
-what would you need to see in a bike in order to want to buy it?
-Price(realistically)
-Anything else you can possibly think of that could be helpful.

After receiving general information from everyone I then might create a pole with more specific info for you to choose from to help me narrow ideas.
I will also be looking for people with skills and ambition to join the company later on so if you are in California or would consider relocating let me know. Obviously we are not there yet so don't get too excited just yet.

To all who decide to offer their opinions,
My most sincere gratitude for your efforts. This is an opportunity to change the way we do things and make a difference in this world by setting the bar for excellence and efficiency, as well as to show we care about how we impact our planet. Ok, it's also about making awesome bikes to ride!
One last thing. If this company can make it, I promise I will never sell out!

[coachgeo]

Gear Box relates to engine..... In our home built reality we are trying to match gear boxes desinged for high RPM bike engines to our lower RPM engines. or very old gearboxes for older lower rpm engines but..... questionable on how well they handle diesel torque. For mass produced bikes it might be cheaper to have designed for you and produced transmissions actually matched to power curve/RPM's of chosen engine. Even cheaper to go with CVT as TRACK did

but..... will that sell here. Maybe not in bikes at first but in trikes yes.

Safest trikes are reverse trikes.

Leaner trikes are coolest.

[XLerate]

Yes, with diesels it's all about GEARS GEARS GEARS as CoachGeo says!

There's a very good reason that transport trucks have 10-20 or more gears forward: they NEED them!

The diesel's narrow rpm/power band means that a more exactly matched gear ratio is needed at every moment. If one desires to build an 'ideal' diesel bike I believe the basics would be a 6 speed tranny at absolute bare minimum, if not 7 or 8. It's entirely possible to build up a good close rato 4 speed or 5 speed, then a Hi-Lo splitter gearbox with full synchro to split according to road speed.

If done properly, getting the numbers right, one could select any needed gear at any engine speed or road speed while staying right square in the middle of power band.

Middle of power band is also the optimum or ideal rpm's for highest fuel mileage as well. With a proper governor allowing maximum rpm's while protecting against engine damage or high rpm wear you can have a bike for all conditions with outstanding power, rideability & fuel mileage.

The main enemy of most diesel bikes is the poor transmission choices, like 3 speeds or 4 speeds. You just can't get there from here.

I'm no fan of CVT as it takes away far too much of the riding experience & cycle's sensory feedback which is one of the main reasons for riding bikes in the first place! If I wanted fully automatic I'd ride the bus where it's all done for me.

50-75 or better, 100 horsepower with large torque & a 4 or 5 speed trans with full synchro Hi-Lo splitter would be one amazing bike. No problem cracking 100 mpg or more with great acceleration & pleasant cruising rpm's.

[pietenpol2002]

I admire your initiative and goal. Wouldn't it be cool!!

I couldn't tell from your post whether you are talking custom-one-off examples or mass production as Coachgeo has suggested (although to suggest "mass production" for a diesel bike here in the states is a bit of a stretch). I wonder whether the biggest hurdle you'd encounter for production bikes would be meeting the emission standards. Admittedly,I know little about emissions standards, however it's my understanding that those standards are why we see so few production diesel vehicles in the states. Have you done any research on the matter?

And should you develop a front wheel drive reverse trike as Coachgeo has proposed, the link below would provide you with a very nice plug-and-play option - everything you need for the perfect diesel configuration with CVT, differential and half shafts for the independent front suspension, as well as reverse.

http://www.lombardinigroup.it/lombardin ... r-pack-cvt

[royaldragon]

I haven't fully decided to do costom or to do full production of a model or two. That's part of what I'm trying to figure out now. What would people buy and how can I get people interested. I could go either way at this point. Most important is getting more fuel efficient alternative transportation out there to the people. Bikes would be EPA certified and what ever was needed to be eco friendly. I am looking into adding some sort of particulate filter and or water trap. As long as there is a way I will make it happen.

[XLerate]

A dedicated focus is the key to success in mfg. For that you need to know your market & analyse all the info that's already out there. Your dream may be ecology, save the planet, etc. but that's isn't the primary focus of bikers. Matter of fact it's hardly a passing consideration. Not saying here that this is your main interest, just throwing it out there.

Traditionally since the turn of last century motorcycles have become popular for one and only one reason: sensory experience!

Nowadays a second major consideration of 'bikers' is IMAGE. Can't count the number of silly looking gray haired retired bozo's that spend $1,000's upon $1,000's for the 'biker look'. "See these custom BIKER leathers & BIKER boots and my cool little BIKER beard and my badass BIKER suglasses and my totally awesome BIKER's HARLEY DAVIDSON BIKER's BIKE!!! I'm a super cool BIKER 'cause of all this neat stuff, SEE??!!!"

The others are real bikers. Neither group stays awake nights worrying about the EPA or MPG's to any extent. What they care about is BIKES, the BIKER lifestyle & BIKER image and BIKER experience.

Real bikers are out for the EXPERIENCE FIRST & the rest sort of follows along behind somehow. Give them the experience, plus a diesel and incredible mileage that's also a good handliing ride that looks cool at a sane price & you got it.

[oldbmw]

In my view you will need a three cylinder engine. It is the only way to get rid of enough vibrations. If you go the way of a balance shaft in a twin the costs get close to adding the third cylinder. Three cylinders also makes the power delivery smooth and by reducing cylinder size you increase the rpm possible which will alleviate the gear needs. Instead of having 1 down 4 or 6 up, have a 2 down. the lowest gear being for pulling away under adverse conditions and crawling.

you didn't state your expected market so maybe a basic naked version for overlanding etc.
one with full Avonaire type fairing for commuting and touring.
maybe a "sports" one with a turbo.

by mixing and matching these options you can custom build on the production line and score the widest possible market.

Do include a centre stand and make both wheels the same diameter.

have also factory options of rear carrier, top box and panniers.

hope this helps.
Larry

[Stuart]

For me it would ideally be an inline 3 cylinder bike styled more along the lines of a touring road bike as opposed to an off road machine. I say this as the heavier diesel engine is best kept lower for better handling.
Output would be best through a traditional gearbox and shaft drive to rear wheel for less maintainence.
I'd prefer an ECU controlled engine similar to modern diesel cars so it could both rev higher and have more injections per cycle so as to reduce diesel 'clatter' noise which would be off putting to potential buyers. That or a decent water jacket to deaden the sound more.
A turbo would be a must and I see the engine size being around 800cc with switchable Touring & Sport modes for increased acceleration.
In my view such a machine would appeal to Commuters, Tourers, Despatch riders and Police forces as a good and economical working motorcycle.
Such a motorcycle should strive to be as similar as possible to current bikes in this class in every aspect so as not to scare off potential buyers. How many times have we seen weird looking electric cars that just don't cut it?

[XLerate]

I strongly agree with 3 cylinder layout. Probably water cooled would be good but air cooled is cheaper to build. I'd seriously consider mechanical driven dry sump lubrication with oil cooler standard, that way engine can be laid down for lowest center of gravity & oil cooler helps protect engine & cooling with smaller radiator.

USA requirements are entirely different than many other countries because of average road speeds here. With the normal flow of traffic at 75-85 mph on major hiways some serious power is necessary just for safe motoring. Other diesel bikes have been tried but normally far too low on power so that few were interested.

With proper financial backing there's a niche market for extreme top end designs, no holds barred. There's plenty of folks up in that stratosphere who will buy. There you could offer a nice flat horizontal opposed 2 liter 6 cylinder, supercharged & injected with 6-8 speed gearbox, aero farings as mentioned, plus aero panniers for high speed long distance touring with superbike handling. Build with lots of sparkly ultra-light alloys & carbon fiber etc. Also some extreme lighting and all the creature comforts imaginable for those who could afford such a thing. Price tag is irrelevant, higher the better for some folks!

That way they can say in an offhand way, 'Yeah, it was $58,000 but ya know, I just loved the color....'

[coachgeo]

Another route to consider.....

Your venture would take $$$.

Instead of starting over... take that same capital investment and invest it into getting the TRACK bike USA EPA certified and start selling it here!!!!!

[royaldragon]

Xlerate,
Your ideas are well put. All of you have had great input so far, and for that I am very grateful. I agree that most bikers good care less about fuel economy. Good point in needing to attract them with an awesome bike and the good fuel economy will just be in the background for many. There is much to be done in the research and development area. I like the idea of working with the Track bike, however, I want these bikes to be fresh, and I'm not extremely into their look. Plus I am working to developed and or modify a more efficient engine and transmission design.
Keep it coming!

[XLerate]

I'm sure I went overboard in a couple of areas but yes, it's important to give people what they want, not what we think they should want. I present the Chevy Volt as a fine example! Matter of fact every single example of the new super-mileage ultra eco-friendly vehicles has crashed in flames as far as the buying public is concerned, "No thanks..."

Soccer moms still want fat SUV's and some other best sellers are all the retro-style hotrods from yesteryear, the Dodge Challenger/Charger, Ford Mustang & Chevy Camaro 'Muscle cars'. Big fat Harley's and all the other major brands in their big super-cruiser bikes are doing gangbuster business! You won't have people eagerly lined up to buy Honda 150 performance.

On the one hand we may express ourselves in a design concept and look for a small corner of a market & hope for the best, not really expecting to have a large impact overall. On the other hand one may target right square in the center & effectively blow everybody else clean out of the water! Like CoachGeo says, that takes MONEY!

Give people what they really want & convince them that is what they want with LOTS of hot advertising and you'll have your dream and maybe, just maybe you & your investors will laugh all the way to the bank...

[Stuart]

?....I am working to develope and or modify a more efficient engine and transmission design.
Keep it coming!

I've always thought that (apart from the engine modification or replacement) the one bike currently on the market that it would take least to modify would be the Triumph Rocket 3. Ok, perhaps a bit over the top for a working bike but designed for a big country like the US and strong enough to pack a decent size diesel lump no?
Just (just!) get the engine sent off to some experts who would sleeve her down from 2.3 to 1.1 (the bottom end could handle the increased compression then surely?), replace some key internals with stronger components & swop over the engine management and it's sorted If only eh

[royaldragon]

Indeed. Trying to sleeve or simply design a stronger one is a good idea. Maybe we could come up with a diesel engine that uses more of the fifty some percent of waisted energy... and not have it blow up in your crotch.
I was all for the computer mods and support for engines to make them more efficient but part of me keeps thinking. Keep it simple...
Thought: I have read that water injection reduces coking and cold starting on veggie oil causes coking. Wouldn't it then be natural to have water injection if I would be burning vegetables?[auto corrections are pretty silly; that should say veggie oil] Perhaps this is best discussed under another topic.

[Stuart]

Yes, best left for another thread that. May headed 'making Common Rail engines running on Veg oil' perhaps?

If you want to keep a bike simple then why not licence the engine design from Altius (formerly HDT) and/or import that simpler, single cylinder engine and fit it to a bike more 'road or commuter' orientated?
Or better still, turn that design into a twin or three cylinder engine. It would be multi fuel & high revving. Revs are what you would want.

[royaldragon]

Stuart,
What is this Altius engine you mention?

[royaldragon]

Ah, yes.
Hayes Diversified Technologies. I contacted them direcly and asked what they were up to, and if they would be interested in my venture. I was asked to give more info, then of course never heard back.
One of my problems is I want to research what is available. When doing such everyone wants to know what company you represent and when they find out the company is not fully established and already making lots money, they ignore you. Except for China of course, they are ready to do anything I ask.

[coachgeo]

Go to Kohler website and search their engines. They have new products (actually Lombardini engines) that look EXTREMELY promosing and are sold in USA. BTW Lombardini is the Engine that Heicko seems to prefer FWIW.

Agree that using triple cyl petrol bikes for conversion is best way to go if conversions is route undertaken. Wonder if overseas (where their are more Triumph triples) there is someone who sets them up for racing or something that has ability to or already make custom frames for them. Few changes to match engine/tranny and order up a bunch of frames?

[zarquon]

Go to Kohler website and search their engines. They have new products (actually Lombardini engines) that look EXTREMELY promosing and are sold in USA. BTW Lombardini is the Engine that Heicko seems to prefer FWIW.

Their new products are the KDI1903TCR and the KDI2504TCR. The have an output of 56 and 75 hp, a displacement of 1.9 liters and 2.5 liters and a given weight of 233kg and 267kg

The other engines were introduced by Lombardini in the early 1990s and received only some modifications in the last 20 years. I can't discover anything that looks more promising today, than it looks 20 years ago. Sad but true.

The engine used in the Track T-800CDI was also introduced back in the year 2000 in the Smart cdi car.

Maybe you should keep that in mind while thinking about a new and revolutionary dieselmotorcycle.

[coachgeo]

...
The engine used in the Track T-800CDI was also introduced back in the year 2000 in the Smart cdi car....

Yep that does appear to be the most modern inline 3 diesel. Which it sorta suprised me earlier when Royaldragon discounted it so easily when they are the most modern

... I like the idea of working with the Track bike, however, I want these bikes to be fresh, ...... Plus I am working to developed and or modify a more efficient engine and transmission design....

[royaldragon]

You all have valid points on the Track bike; they do seem very open on their website to offering their bikes to the USA market. However would they offer their engine only is the question. I wonder why they don't port the exhaust more to the rear of the bike. Also I don't know how their engine would take Veggie oil.

I am trying to be open to everything. It might even be interesting to sell the Track bike( that could fill the off-road niche) and also offer custom bikes(bobber and cruiser)... just a thought.

I have corresponded a little with Simon from Specialist Components in the UK. They offer engine management systems. If we could get a good engine design and set it up right, i think we could do well over 200mpg. There are diesel engines that currently are being developed that optimistically have been said will provide 200mpg in a car. Simon seemed hopeful that with the right engine it could be possible to do a one tank veggie oil system with a bike, eliminating the need for a second tank. Elsbett technologies in Germany has been doing this with cars for a while now. Designing an engine would provide better chances of getting it where we want it. I have tried communicating with VM Motori to inquire about developing an engine. Sadly though I have had no response from them. (Perhaps I don't sound professional enough?).
Zarquon,
I am starting to feel fairly strongly (unless someone has a better idea) that we should develop a new engine. So far I have not found an engine that seems to be exactly what I want. Diesels of today still waist a lot of energy and clearly most are not designed to go in a motorcycle. With exception of course the Track, HDT, etc. I am not an engineer or a scientist, so I don't want to sound like I know it all, I just want to do my best to make this work. I feel pretty confident that it could be possible to create a bike that could have only one fuel tank, get 200mpg on veggie oil, and still be a hit among bikers. It is going to take some time to get it all figured out and I have a lot to learn!
That's why I have you guys! So far you all are my research and development team.
Thanks for all the input so far!

[coachgeo]

...Simon seemed hopeful that with the right engine it could be possible to do a one tank veggie oil system with a bike, eliminating the need for a second tank. Elsbett technologies in Germany has been doing this with cars for a while now. ...

Love your enthusiasm.

Elsbitt even has multifuel engine patents written by pappa Elsibitt himself. Geez that might be as long as 40yrs ago so yeah the've been at it awhile. IMHO he is the father of cupped pistons to improve fuel automation. (basically the old swirl/precumbustion chamber in a new location) A design incorporateed into most of the more effcient diesel engines of today.

but... if you push alternate fuels this project is more liable to sink. It does NOT sell well when that is pushed. NOT saying dont do it....... just slide it in as your market builds and IMHO it needs to come MUCH later. FIRST you must have a sellable product!

[old clunker]

Some nice ideas put forward so far; my ideal diesel bike would cheap to run and a fun to ride touring bike with the option of having a fairing, or unfaired.
A choice of 5 speed or auto cvt type transmission, maybe a shaft drive option, and the bike shape not too bulky in size or heavy, to make it useful in town and heavy traffic.
A 500cc engine with ability to cruise at 70 mph with at least 150 to 200 mpg economy. Anything larger engine size tends to make the bike a 'monster', weight and handling wise. So around 400 pounds in bike weight, is about the maximum, as any heavier would put off a lot of older people, including me with worn out knees and bad back! Also excess bike weight would put off a lot of women bikers, there are a few that like to ride proper motorbikes (I have a women friend who liked to ride old British bikes in the past) and they are around 50% of the population approx. so a large possible potential market to sell to!
It would be nice to have a bike that's mechanically simple and easy to do home maintenance, avoiding expensive trips to the bike dealer/mechanic that charge a fortune, like on sportsbikes. And avoid ECU management that needs special analysers and software to set them up, or modify parameters. A right pain that seems more prevalent these days. Also avoid using sports tyres that just last about 3000 miles (if you're lucky!) and cost around £100 to £200 each to change! Nice for 'boy racers' but I've got no time for them!
Turbo's seem a nice idea, but the typical law of engineering, is that you can't get something for nothing! Turbo's tend to increase fuel consumption, substantially boost engine power, with greatly increased pressures and engine wear, and shortens engine life - ideal for racing, but not the daily commute!So the engine has to be made more complex, more robust and heavier with a Turbo, which reduces the efficiency again!Life does tend to go round in circles?!

Finally, I hope you avoid the route of the OCC custom cruisers, with all their hype and nonsense! I don't know if I'm getting old and cynical these days, but all these so-called 'custom choppers' seem to look the same styling wise to me, not very different, with the same cliché styling and can hardly be called 'custom' now!
I think that styling 'trap' is best avoided!
Good luck with your ideas, and I sincerely hope you succeed in changing what's on offer in the motorcycling world.

[royaldragon]

Old Clunker,
I like your way of thinking, I think you have the right idea with keeping it simple. I'm not a big fan of heavily overdone bikes either. If my bike embarrassingly falls over I'd like to at least be able to pick it up, instead of having to assemble a team to help. If I do to go the custom route don't worry it will not be like OCC. Their bikes are no different than people who buy buy specialized parts for harleys and call them custom. Take a crappie MIG welded frame , throw in a mix of prefabricated parts , 1 or 2 tiny custom pieces, scream at each other a little, and then you have a so called custom bike..._ No, I can tell you for sure these bikes will be TIG welded and if I go the custom route, each part will be unique. That said if I can get off the ground enough, I may end up doing 1 or 2 styles and sticking to those like a cruiser and bobber or British style. 1 thing for sure that will remain the same is the engine because once I find 1 that works I want to stick with it so that I can use the efficiency. I'm planning on speaking with Elsbett technologies to see if they would let me use their patents or use their engine or let them create an engine for me so that I can use a single tank system. This way people could put any combination of vegetable oil or diesel in the tank and not have to start on diesel. Like you said making the bikes hasslefree would be better.
Thanks for the comments keep them rolling.

[henneberg]

My preference diesel would be like:

Less than 180 kg for easy handling and high mpg.
One or two cyl. 500-600cc electronic controlled high pressure injection for high mpg.
5 speed or an automatic CVT like Aprilia Mana

rgds, Erik

[Diesel Dave]

Tmax with a turbo diesel, hydraulic tappets and a 300 mile tank range.

Luggage capacity for 2 up 3 week tours.

And...

Tote Gote version with 2 cylinder Axiom type 500 twin with hi-lo range gearing. Loads of secondary market bling bits like the Honda Zoomer range). Tyres that last 30k and ability to carry a spare with the tractor type chevron block tread for those off road bear hunting trips.

[royaldragon]

D-Dave I like the idea of hydraulic tappets. Since I'm shooting for 200mpg or better I don't think the 300 miles per tank will be an issue.
As intriguing as it sounds to have a bear slung over a sidecar offroading, I think I might pass on that option. Maybe offer ideas for modifications should people want to go that rout.

[Henk]

For years it was a BMW injection, model not important.
But it was a total disappointment having an R1100R. It wasn't developed completely. Many annoying things and even so many (bad) excuses from the dealer.

My dreambike is max. 50 Hp, don/t need more. Very easy to maintain. No need for periodic replacements of gaskets, belt's and so on. Just oil and airfilter after a while . Easy valve adjustments, if it isn.automatic like many car's today.
I like the cardan of BMW, so I would have an cardan on my dreambike.
Rugged frame, for supporting a sidecar in the future. Well painted to prevent rusting for years.

[royaldragon]

I have tried again and again to contact Elsbett Tecnologies and they never respond. I would love to use their technology, however their online shop link doesn't work. Out of 5 emails, 3 in English and 2 in German, I get no response from them. Any one know anything about them? This type of modification or development in a new engine is key to using veg and diesel easily and interchangeably. Is Sir Elsbett alive?

[coachgeo]

I have tried again and again to contact Elsbett Tecnologies and they never respond. I would love to use their technology, however their online shop link doesn't work. Out of 5 emails, 3 in English and 2 in German, I get no response from them. Any one know anything about them? This type of modification or development in a new engine is key to using veg and diesel easily and interchangeably. Is Sir Elsbett alive?

is this where you tried to get ahold of them? http://www.elsbett.com

Yes Sr. passed away some time ago. Last I heard Jr? was running the company