Starting to plan my build... Finally!

IgorVigor · Post by **IgorVigor** » Mon May 17, 2010 11:01 am

I finally have started to plan my diesel bike/trike build...

I haven't got much money, so I need to work with what I have got and what I can get cheap...

I can always get bits of steel (angle iron, channel, box section, bar, tube, etc) so thats not a problem.

I have got my Ford Endura 1.8 diesel with a Escort van gearbox if I want to use that, and I have got my Petter AVA1 diesel (4.5hp) if I want to use that...
I have a Lawnmower gearbox (Peerless 700 series for anyone that knows)...

I have a welder, angle grinder, etc and a load of hand tools....

All I need to do is workout what engine I am using, what gearbox, what drive type I am using and whether I am building a bike trike....

One thing I haven't ever done though is mate an engine to a different gearbox (one it wasnt designed for)

Any ideas/comments?

Thanks...

Sphere · Post by **Sphere** » Mon May 17, 2010 2:16 pm

Find a different use for the 4.5hp engine and find a suitable frame to stuff the Ford engine in

IgorVigor · Post by **IgorVigor** » Mon May 17, 2010 2:57 pm

Thats exactly what I was thinking, only I am planning to build my own frame (and then using a donor bikes head stock etc)

A 60hp 1.8 diesel should give the bike some oomph

only think I need to work out, is the gearbox, and drive to the back wheel

An idea I had was to get the gearbox of a Ford Sierra, (or another gearbox that will fit fairly easily to the Ford Endura Diesel), and then getting the rear diff off any RWD car.

And basically cut the diff right down to just the main casing, weld up the spider gears, and one output, and the other side just using a very short half shaft and hub...

would put a chunk on one side of the bike, but I am sure I can balance it up some how

Or just use the diff as is, and make a trike...

Either way, I think I need to ditch the stock FWD box :S...

EDIT:
Forgot to add, I could use any diff, as I would need to connect the output of the gearbox to the propshaft using a chain and 2 identical sprockets.

Now that I have written that though, I suppose I could just use the box I have got, and then just use different sprockets (output from box with 42 tooth, and then 12 tooth on the propshaft to diff for example, working on a diff with a 3.5:1 ratio)...

Funny how ideas pop into your head after reading one :S

pietenpol2002 · Post by **pietenpol2002** » Mon May 17, 2010 3:37 pm

Is that 1.8 from a front wheel drive? Those vehicles don't make it to the states, so unfamiliar to us.

IgorVigor · Post by **IgorVigor** » Mon May 17, 2010 5:23 pm

Yes it is.

Nice engine they are

60hp, and reliable as anything...

Mine has only done just under 50,000 miles

Seeing that they with basic maintenance will do 300,000 miles....
its got plenty of life left

Thats why I want to use it...

Bit of info on the engine (mine has 1.8 Diesel on the rocker cover, you'll understand if you read the following page)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Endura-D_engine

And the Ford Escort:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Escort_(Europe)

mine is a Mk5b...

cumorglas · Post by **cumorglas** » Mon May 17, 2010 11:19 pm

swapping fwd to rwd tranny's seldom goes as smoothly as you hoped.

have you considered trike with engine and fwd transaxle in rear. like a trivette.

http://www.vigillante.com/TriVette.htm

pietenpol2002 · Post by **pietenpol2002** » Tue May 18, 2010 1:16 am

How about a forward driven trike. Wouldn't require having to swap out the trans or differential. Just maintain the entire front clip as it is. Something on the order of the Red Baron below.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Sulkyrider#p/u

Now, admittedly it's a pimped over rear wheel drive Jawa, but you get the idea. When flying, I always prefer having the engine in front of me as opposed to a pusher. When its you out front, you're the first one to the scene of the accident, followed shortly by that hot lump of iron just behind you. I much prefer having having a few parts absorb some of the forces before I arrive on the scene. And when the engine's out front you can see what parts are being shed in flight as they pass by. Perhaps catch a few if you're lucky.

And if this idea is too absurd and dangerous, hopefully someone far more knowledgeable will correct us shortly.

coachgeo · Post by **coachgeo** » Tue May 18, 2010 2:04 am

a more traditional version would be

make a frame that incorporates the rear end of a motorcycle. Front body could be cobbled together jetski/wetbike and front cowling of a gold wing or simular

IgorVigor · Post by **IgorVigor** » Tue May 18, 2010 12:18 pm

I have already thought of those ideas....

The FWD reverse trike is the most tempting for me

just for the lunacy factor

Initially I would build it just for off road fun (fields, beaches, dunes, ice/snow when applicable

, etc)
And then once I could afford to get it road legal, then it would be

No matter what though, it wont have much silencing on the exhaust (tractor silencer most likely

) complete with flap

I know what you mean though about using the front of the car...

all the suspension, steering, gears, diff, etc are all setup already...

all I need to worry about is fitting it into a custom frame....

has anyone in Cornwall/Devon area, got a nice little diesel, suitable for a motorbike, that they dont want?
And cheap?

quite happy with something as small as 4hp, as long as it has a variable throttle (no use having a governed throttle

)

EDIT:
Damn do I hate not having a job/money

Stupid recession :O

Currently thinking of a small diesel as well, to fit into an old moped...
Which as I have thought of before (and posted about) already has a good little CVT...
So a bit of fettling/modding/bodging/hitting/"persuading" it would fit

IgorVigor · Post by **IgorVigor** » Wed May 19, 2010 4:41 pm

Another thought...

If I mounted the engine sideways (as it would be in the car), I wouldn't have the problems of getting drive to the back wheel...

I could simply cut a driveshaft shorter and then weld a hub onto it, so fit a sprocket too...

How easy is it to modify a driveshaft?

I havent ever had to modify one...
Infact, the only time I have seen one modified, it was to increase the length, and they simply cut it, and then welded a tube over it...

It would make for a wide bike, but hopefully not too wide

As long as the chain/sprocket final drive front sprocket was under the engine it would keep the width as small as possible...

I would probably make a jackshaft, as then I could play with the gearing easier...

Any thoughts?

coachgeo · Post by **coachgeo** » Wed May 19, 2010 8:01 pm

IgorVigor wrote:....

If I mounted the engine sideways (as it would be in the car), I wouldn't have the problems of getting drive to the back wheel...

I could simply cut a driveshaft shorter and then weld a hub onto it, so fit a sprocket too...

How easy is it to modify a driveshaft?..

Drive line shops are out there.. . well at least here in the USA they are.

Search your phone directory? It's a fairly specialized thing cause of the balancing. Their typically very good machinist though.

Post by **Crazymanneil** » Wed May 19, 2010 9:57 pm

Or you could weld up the diff in the original box and turn the engine sideways so its longditudinal and then find whatever diff gives you a sensible ratio to the wheels?

Should be an interesting build!

N

pietenpol2002 · Post by **pietenpol2002** » Thu May 20, 2010 1:18 am

Or as Neil suggested, maintain the east/west arrangement of the engine, weld up the differential, cut off the end of the right hand half shaft and mount an outboard bearing on the end of the half shaft. You could then position a keyless bushing and the accompanying hub/sprocket (or weld it in place) where ever you want on the half shaft to align with the rear wheel sprocket. Forward engine and rear wheel drive - couldn't be much simpler. You might however want to fill your pockets with sand in the hope of keeping the rear of the bike on the ground in the event of a panic stop.

I should add that if you attempt any of the hair brained ideas we cook up, we"ll deny these conversations ever occurred.

IgorVigor · Post by **IgorVigor** » Thu May 20, 2010 8:48 am

As for a diff with a sensible ratio for the back wheel...

I think thats unlikely

I dont really want a bike that tops out at 65mph with a 1.8D :S

Thats more what I was thinking pietenpol....

As for keeping the bike on the ground, I was going to go for the hardtail cruiser design, with a sprung seat...

as for filling my pockets with sand to keep the back wheel on the ground in an emergency stop....
I dont think that will be necessary

Shame I cant take sound out of my pockets

It would make for a fairly wide bike, but it wouldnt be very long, so handling shouldnt be too bad (a 300~400kg bike isnt going to handle like a racer anyway

)

IgorVigor · Post by **IgorVigor** » Thu May 20, 2010 1:21 pm

Was just looking around, and saw this:

http://www.motorrad-hofschaller.de/dieselfighter.html

Not sure if its been talked about before, but its a 1.6TD 70HP VW Golf motor in a GPZ1000 frame with a GPZ900 Gearbox cut away from engine and then linked to the diesel....

Looks good

Sort of what I was hoping for

I think to be honest though, I am going to end up building a trike with the engine instead...
Or perhaps a tractor

TedV · Post by **TedV** » Thu May 20, 2010 8:06 pm

Yup, its been seen around, posted about. Thought it was mentioned in one of the threads about your escort motor. I've thought of it since I can get 1.6 to 1.9 VW easy. I am curious how the jack shaft works out over time. Anyone know if he has had problems?

zarquon · Post by **zarquon** » Fri May 21, 2010 9:49 am

Charly startet to build his Dieselfighter in 2001 and introduced it in 2002.
You can see it also here. With Pics vom 2002!

http://classic.dieselkrad.info/dieselmo ... ghter.html

There is also a short video availible.
http://video.google.de/videoplay?docid= ... 4349385701

At least there are two more bikes with a 1.6l VW Car-engine.

Stephanes Dieselross (Netherland): http://classic.dieselkrad.info/dieselmo ... lross.html
and
Werners CBR 1600 TD (Germany): http://classic.dieselkrad.info/dieselmo ... 600td.html

The Dieselfighter and CBR are a bit lost. Haven't seen them for several years now. But Stephan uses his Dieselross even for long journeys.

IgorVigor · Post by **IgorVigor** » Fri May 21, 2010 3:16 pm

Just a question while I think about it...

Having been around stationary engines a long time, I know that you can (if you need) run a second belt from the starter shaft on most of them...

Looking at the Endura D engine today, and noticed that all the main crankshaft pulley drives is the alternator...
And then behind that, there is a cover, over the camshaft belt/tensioners and the fuel pump belt...

If I removed the alternator, could I use that pulley to drive a belt to a gearbox?
and just make a cover over the flywheel end (to protect me/flywheel

)

If not, I think the next best thing would be to drive a chain from the flywheel end to a jackshaft fitted in place of a crankshaft on a standard bike engine...

Still thinking that a reverse trike might be easier/better :S :O
At least if I did that, a lot of the work is all ready done...
engine, gearbox, driveshafts, hubs, front brakes, suspension (coil)...
Apart from the SVA test side :S...

EDIT:
Forgot to add, I really like the look of the Dieselross...

Thats the sort of thing I was going for....

Couple of questions:
Is the gearbox automatic? couldnt see a gearchange...
where did he get that 1:1 bevel box?

I doubt I could afford one though

Anyone got an idea about using a rear wheel drive diff for something similar?

The only thought I had was to cut one side off, weld the spider gears, and then connect my gearbox's driveshaft to what was one wheel hub and then use the old input as the wheel hub...
Only slight problem I can for see, is the problem that there would be a gearing increase...

so if I got a diff with the same ratio as the diff in my gearbox, it would be a 1:1 ratio straight out of the gearbox :S

which would mean the backwheel could be spinning as fast as the engine :S...

Post by **Crazymanneil** » Fri May 21, 2010 5:38 pm

I don't think a drivebelt off the alternator pulley will handle the horsepower you'll be putting down. There are calculators for working that kind of stuff out on the internet. If you could replace that pulley with something else it might work? I don't know if that would do weird things to the engine though. A lot of them the alternator pulley is a "vibration damper pulley" which does some voodoo magic to stop crankshafts breaking (a good reason not to ditch it alltogether). I think the Endura falls into this category, a lot of the later ford diesels had problems with this pulley coming apart!

N

IgorVigor · Post by **IgorVigor** » Sat May 22, 2010 12:08 pm

Thats the only thing I wondered :S

I will think of something

TedV · Post by **TedV** » Sat May 22, 2010 5:20 pm

The dieselross looks to have a VW 5 speed manual gearbox. I'm not sure what the exact workings of the shift linkage tho.

IgorVigor · Post by **IgorVigor** » Sat May 22, 2010 8:01 pm

Thats what I couldnt work out...

He has 2 hand levers, a foot brake lever on the right, and a 2 way lever on the left foot...

I wondered if it was an automatic, and its a basic gear lever mover (instead of a stick)...

zarquon · Post by **zarquon** » Sun May 23, 2010 10:25 am

The Dieselross (re-)uses the original VW Gearbox. I'm not sure if it's a 4 oder 5 speed. Shifting Mechanism is a bit .. let's say unique. For shifting a car gearbox you have to move in two axes. If I remember right Stephan uses Hand and Foot together for changing gears. It's different, but it works.

Wim, also from the netherlands, has build a bike keeping the automatic transmission from the donor car.
In short: A Daihatsu Triple in a Kawasaki VN15 frame.
http://classic.dieselkrad.info/dieselmo ... 1000d.html

IgorVigor · Post by **IgorVigor** » Sun May 23, 2010 4:26 pm

I love the Dieselross

I still cant work out how the gear change works...
There isnt a hand gearchange anywhere...but as long as it works

As for Wim's bike, I am not so keen tbh...

It looks good in some respects, but I dont like the fact that the donor bike was shaft drive, and he's converted it to chain drive (in itself, not a problem) but he has left the old shaft :S

I cant understand that tbh...

TedV · Post by **TedV** » Mon May 24, 2010 4:25 pm

zarquon wrote:The Dieselross (re-)uses the original VW Gearbox. I'm not sure if it's a 4 oder 5 speed. Shifting Mechanism is a bit .. let's say unique. For shifting a car gearbox you have to move in two axes. If I remember right Stephan uses Hand and Foot together for changing gears. It's different, but it works.

Wim, also from the netherlands, has build a bike keeping the automatic transmission from the donor car.
In short: A Daihatsu Triple in a Kawasaki VN15 frame.
http://classic.dieselkrad.info/dieselmo ... 1000d.html

The end cap on the Dieselross transmission (behind the front wheel) indicates it is a VW 5sp gear box case. Only he knows what is in it tho.

I have thought about the way the daihatsu did the chain drive, using a short CV equiped driveshaft to a differential to have a flange to use a chain sprocket. easier to change final drive ratios with a chain. With gear boxes you have to have new gears machined, like BMW final drives.

I'd say he left the shaft from the original bike simply because it is part of the suspension.

pietenpol2002 · Post by **pietenpol2002** » Sun May 30, 2010 4:20 am

As long as we're reviewing the various options, here's a reverse of the usual arrangement in that he's got the Daihatsu trans/differential facing the rear. Interesting that it's hardly any longer than if one had used the typical Ural/Dnepr/BMW box as this chap in Poland did on his earlier Daihatsu powered K-750. In fact, the prop shaft originates further forward than it would were it exiting from a traditional bike box.

http://www.fotosik.pl/pokaz_obrazek/pel ... 927fe.html

IgorVigor · Post by **IgorVigor** » Sun May 30, 2010 4:25 pm

The main thing I need to sort/work out is getting drive from the stock gearbox, to the back wheel, without dropping the ratio much/at all.....

I dont want the engine transversely across the frame

so I have the engine/gearbox, the standard driveshafts, etc...

anyone got a good idea (that will hopefully work) but is as cheap as possible?

a 90 degree box with a 1:1 ratio would be the best...
as long as it can handle the torque of a 1.8 Ford diesel engine...

I really like the dieselross, and thats what I am aiming to build

EDIT:

Does anyone know what the 90 degree box is used on the Dieselross?

or for that matter the one used on the VN with the Daihatsu engine?
all I can see is its 90 degrees and converts a shaft to a chain... :S

DieselBike.net

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