Car engine in bike frame......ideas

[trikerdrew]

hi guys,

Seems like the fiesta deisel motor is good for bike power.

fitting headstock to front of motor seems straightforward.

What about rear drive?

Looking at using fords gearbox.How do I use one driveshaft only.Do I need to weld internals to lock it up.

How does the ford box cope with rear gearing as the shaft drive gets reduced by ratio.

Loads of maths problems.Any ideas or help??

Seen a ford pinto in a bike.Try and put the pic up here



Any ideas on simplist way of drive would be good

Cheers,

Drew[/img]

[Diesel Dave]

Yup you need to weld up the PLANET gears in the differential or lock them in some other fashon - old cheepo drag racers used to put a pin through the whole lot.

Final drive will need to be 1:1 bevel box, not common but are out there.

There are industrial bevel boxes that could do this but I doubt you could use them as a final drive easily. Prob easier to mount this in the frame and chain drive to the rear wheel from this.

I did talk about this with Gaz but he said that the motorcycle 1:1 bevel boxes he had used were a bit fragile with the diesel motor and he had broken a few in the past. This was one of the reasons he was consideing using the Ford CVT auto - this might be a bit kinder on the rear drive as well as sorting out the somewhat heavy clutch action and wierd hand gearchange required.

Regards
Dave

[Kenco1955]

Hi Drew
Yeah, like you I fancy the idea of a car engined diesel bike and keeping the origional gearbox seems a sensible one. (at least you know you've got a set of ratios that'll work!!)
I did have some thoughts on this, these were; Keeping as many origional parts as possible (engine, clutch and gearbox so all this is proven to work!!) Lock up the diff (big electric welder seems to do the job!!)
Now my thoughts were to use something like a BMW swinging arm and bevel drive, again kept standard. So the problem is to raise the gearing of the diff output by approximately 3:1 (or whatever the BMY final drive ratio is)
The way I envisaged doing this was to macine the (car) drive shaft to accomodate a sprocket and use a chain drive to a smaller sprocket/shaft arrangement, from which the BMW drive shaft would be connected.
(in other words a small "step up gearbox" mounted close to the car gearbox diff.)
Not sure if this would work and one potential problem may be the height of the new output??
But at least you'd end up with a reliable shaft drive.
The chain in the"step up" box would have a fairly easy life as its not being used as the final drive (altering its effective length with susspension travel!!)
Just seems that this would be easier than trying to machine bell housings of bike gearboxes and ending up with a set of ratios more suited to a petrol engine!!
Still quite a bit of machining to be done though!!
Ah well, good luck with your project.
Regards to all out there.
Ken.

[trikerdrew]

this is the most straightforward drive I've seen.

Really wanted shaft drive,less hastle.

Cheers,

Drew[/img]

[balboa_71]

Trikerdrew,
I understand the drawing.....but what is better is the art work for the sketch.
Who is the artist?

Cris

[trikerdrew]

legendry custom bike/trike all round madman Chris Ireland.He used to run a well known outfit called Desperate Dans

http://www.chrisireland.co.uk/

Just look at what he built

Drew

[Crazymanneil]

Interesting idea. What sort of weight is there in the ford diesel engine though? I used to have a 1.8 diesel fiesta. I remember it chugged along to about 110mph and got 60mpg (imperial) although mine had a dodgy gearbox diff bearing. Shame i never kept it for parts eh? ;o)

On the plus side the engine was pretty simple (electric to stop solenoid and starter motor and off ya go). Was not that loud either, but was constructed of cast iron...

Neil

[trikerdrew]

Hi,

Something I need to confess to is I iove ugly bikes.That's why I want a dirty great frankenstein of a bike.I'll try and post an image to show you the direction I'm looking at.

Realise that the ford 1.8d uses a cast(bloody heavy) block.That was something I considered.To offset that though I have several scrapyards within a three mile radius of me.

Spares and availability are key to me.I know little about derv engines.Four and two strokes i'm good with having owned several cars/bikes/trikes.There is a huge knowledge base to tap into with a well used engine and spares are cheap

Would an alternative motor give me the same level of spares/help?There are alot of the 1.9 citreons being scrapped due to complex suspension.Is the citreon block any better for conversion??

What is the normal engine of choice?

Daihatsu(SP??? )Seem hard to find and silly money.Great size/capacity though.

Any ideas,info,opinions or links??

Cheers,

Drew
ps here is very roughly what I'm intending to build,slightly better finished and I hope shorter but thats all

[Kenco1955]

Hy Drew,
Seems like the "holy grail" of diesel engines for bikes Is the smart engine (alloy lump!!) or the VW lupo, both these engines are 3 pots so nice and short, unfortunately they're also relatively new (read bloody expensive!!!)

In the real world where us poor folk live we're left with the older cast iron lumps!! These engines are also a lot simpler ie. no electronic brain injection system!! and more importantly they're cheap!!!

I was looking at the little Peugot engine (1527cc) this motor was fitted to the Peugot 106, Citroen saxo, and Rover 115 (Metro to you and me!) so are quite pleantyfull, apparently they kick out 58BHP (sufficient??)
Other common motors seem to be the Ford 1.8 (as you rightly poit out), Vauxhall (isuzi!) 1.7 and the peugot/citroen 1.7 and 1.9 lumps fitted to 205's 309's BX's etc.

Good luck with the project
Ken

[Crazymanneil]

Hey,

Lupo 1.2L engine = triple cylinder, all alloy block and head (although maybe steel liners?). Has balancer shafts and weighs in at 100kg. Gets 100mpg or so in a lupo 3L car so ??? in a bike. Puts out about 60hp. On the downside it uses the pump deuse (unit injector) setup which can be quite fussy about the fuel you give it. You'd also have to go to europe to try to get one as they were never sold in the UK.

Lupo/Polo 1.4 engine = again 3 cylinder but with heavier components. Easier got in the UK though. Weighs in at about 125kg and puts out around 75hp or more (think there are other versions). Has been around for a while in the polo.

800 CDI smart engine = seems like a wee gem. Put out around 45hp standard although tuning boxes are out there for up to about 69hp. Weighs in at around 55kg. Again though, only really sold in europe. Seem to be more plentiful than the 1.2 tdi though.

With all the above engines you have to deal with the whole wiring loom and ecu thing since they are electronically controlled which makes the setup a bit more complex although generally more fuel economical.

Ford 1.8 diesel = 60hp and ???kg Practically can't leave the house without tripping over one though ;o)

Stay well clear of the 1.4 diesel as used in the citroen ax (and possibly the 106 not sure). They were renound for blowing head gaskets and once they start that craic they keep doing it. Also believe that some of the 1.9 diesels from the 306 had overheating problems on no 4 cylinder due to oil starvation although you'd need to research to be sure.

Any info on the 1.5 106 / saxo engine would be appreciated.

Also, whats the UK sva test like for bikes - is it tough?

Neil

[DEZEL INGEN]

excuse my jump n in here without being talked to.
lots of interesting and info here.
as for pining or welding up your spiders, yes youll need to lock them up.
http://www.indianmotorcyclecommunity.co ... _19042.jpg
as to the transferring power to the wheel. if your using the automotive trans. and a shaft drive. you will need (as suggested) to step up the 3to1 ratio to an motorcycle diff. so s not to be topped out at 40 mph.
there are many builders of industrial spiral bevel-cut gearboxes out there. but depending on your riding habits or should i say how hard you twist the dogs tail. they will only take so much torque/shock. and to find one that will take 75-100 hp and 250ft. lbs. of torque it would more than likely be the same size as your power unit. heres a v8 bike builder in Florida that has designed and built his own in line trans. (John Strickland) and hell of a nice guy. http://www.v8bike.com/picts/drivedia.jpg and heres his site http://www.v8bike.com/picts/main3.jpg
if your not going to use the motorcycle diff. then look into a 1to1 90degree spiral/bevel gearbox. but again (will it take it?)
or poss (as suggested) do away with the automotive trans. and go with a belt/chain set up. similar to what is/was used on the boss hoss and kannon bikes.
lots of trial and err. at least thats what im finding.. ride safe gw

[LocomotiveBreath]

Different strokes for different folks. Whats that contraption cost? I'll bet he's a nice guy, he's trying to sell you one of his gizmo's!

For my brief thoughts on stuffing large Diesel in a bike, I felt that this transmission is the best choice, but has a $6,000 price tag, but a hell of alot better than the gizmo mentioned in the previous post.

http://www.v8bikes.com/VR-MCT.htm

I contacted API when I was going to stuff my Prototype CRD engine in a Bike.

Dave

[DEZEL INGEN]

Different strokes for different folks. Whats that contraption cost? I'll bet he's a nice guy, he's trying to sell you one of his gizmo's!

For my brief thoughts on stuffing large Diesel in a bike, I felt that this transmission is the best choice, but has a $6,000 price tag, but a hell of alot better than the gizmo mentioned in the previous post.

http://www.v8bikes.com/VR-MCT.htm

I contacted API when I was going to stuff my Prototype CRD engine in a Bike.

Dave

(This makes me laugh.) you say
so his is a gizmo, and yours is a transmission.
i dont know the price, never asked. have talked to him about other things. and was just passing on other info the the guy that asked. am fairly new to this world of computers, and trying to converse without hearing someones tone or facial expressions its tuff for me( have yet to figure it out) at least to know when someones down mouthing me or what i have said. so maybe you d tell me if that is so, or your better than thou?
thanks gw

[LocomotiveBreath]

I'm glad I made you laugh! That V8 bike you posted made me laugh, I almost spit coffee all over my laptop. I feel calling it a gizmo is more polite that saying what I really feel about an old Buick/Olds aluminum V8 powered motorcycle-rolling junk yard that gets almost the same economy as my 3/4 ton Dodge truck (22-24mpg).

Dave

[Kenco1955]

Hy Guys,
Seems like a lot of people out there have a wealth of information on various diesel engines (this is good!!)
It strikes me that what would be realy useful is a readilly accessible "data base" in a tabular format.
A suggested field format could perhaps include:

Cappacity
Number of cylinders
Bhp @ RPM
Physical size (overall length, width and height)
Weight
Block and head material (Alloy or cast iron)
Make, model and year of car fitted
Known faults
Electronic or mechanical injection system
Availability
Any other comments

I'm sure this list could be extended!! And of course could include stationary and industrial engines.

I feel such a list could be a usefull asset to anyone at the planning stages of a diesel bike project??

Any thougths??

Ken

[Crazymanneil]

Sounds like a great idea to me. Not sure how it would work though? Ideally you'd want something that everyone can log into and add to rather than one person maintaining it. How about a wiki?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiki

Neil

[Kenco1955]

Hi all,

Glad you like the idea, I'm sure it would be useful to a lot of people (Myself included)

Unfortunately my computer skills are somewhat iffy! (spanner skills slightly better) Yes I agree with you it needs to be in a format that everyone can add to. If anyone out there is clever enough to sort something I think this would benifit all us budding bike designers!

Cheers Ken

[mr chips]

Guys,
I'm running a trike with the 1.5 diesel engine from the Peugeot 106 (iron block, not the 1.4 alloy block engine that was fitted to the same car). Great wee engine, just need the right transmission. Because my machine's a trike I can look at car gearboxes as well. At the moment it's mated to a Beetle gearbox, but it isn't the best suited to the engine and tops out at around 75 mph in top (fourth). Looking into the possibility of an Audi 80 box to transmit drive to my rear wheels, hope to know soon if this is feasible. With that transmission having a fifth gear and more suitable ratios I expect to be able to top 100 mph which would be plenty for me.
One good thing about this engine is that it's pretty simple and uncomplicated, no laptop required! Bigger Peugeot engines from the 306 would also be like this but you're getting into 1.7 or 1.9 territory which is pretty big for a bike frame. A contact says he's heard of "either a Suzuki or a Daihatsu 3 cylinder 1500 diesel" - not sure about this yet, will post here if I find out any more.

[Stuart]

I've just had an email from Kev who owns this (below) Ford 1.8 Diesel engined Trike. He said he's gonna try and make the Brit Rally this year. He tells me the gearbox operates back to front, as far as the lever goes. Beyond that I can't remember any other facts

[gilburton]

I too would like to fit a car engine due to cost considerations as they can be sourced easily in the UK.I was recently running a Rover Metro with the peugeot/citroen 1.5 engine(TD5) and I was getting around 60mpg(imp. gals)so you could imagine the savings if fitted to a lighter vehicle.I would caution on these engines as they do not like vegoil due to the Lucas pump.The other main problem with car engines is the weight/size so I think the large cruiser/chop style of bike suits them best.I too would like to see a listing of possible donor engines but it could get complicated.I have heard/seen pics of home built bikes in the past with car engines fitted and even one in a modern delta type box frame with the engine(petrol) fitted fore and aft(ex navy man me)but no gearbox?He just slipped the clutch and let the engine control speed.It fitted nicely without the gearbox and used shaft drive.The engine fitted between the frame and the fuel tank was cut out to allow this and another tank was fitted underneath the seat.I have some ideas using the bellhousing from the Volvo 340 series cars as these were originally DAF and Volvo in the manual(stickshift)version fitted the gearbox at the rear to replace the DAF CVT transmission.The engine had a dummy bellhousing which incorporated a bearing on the end which attached to the propshaft and had a conventional clutch.You can see where I'm going?adapt the clutch/bellhousing to your engine.You would have to work out the ratios first but I'm sure a torquey diesel would pull it although top speed would be lower than a petrol due to the lower max revs.The other idea rolling around in my head is use a Brit type gearbox/primary mounted sideways to reduce overall length and sprockets/ ratios could easily be altered and mate it to shaft drive or just use the BMW/Ural box although the length is back again or what about something a bit more radical fit the engine backwards and have the transmission(possibly original car) at the front and have an extra jackshaft using pillow blocks/bearings running down the side of the engine ps I must stop this thinking my brain hurts

[sbrumby]

As well as building diesel bikes I am a bit of a farmer, just a thought on 1 to 1 right angle drives, Farm equipment usually got loads of right angle drives, bailers etc. these are very heavy duty as they cope with massive torque, so just a strole round an agricultural breakers might be a thought.

[Crazymanneil]

Me again

Anyone know the weight of a 1.5 TUD5 engine? Or the 1.4 even (although I hear bad things about warping heads...)

Neil

[gilburton]

I can't find anything specific on the TUD5 but some other engines of similar size weigh around 200lbs.The pic of the yellow bike in the first thread doesn't appear to have a gearbox as such?any info?

[andrewaust]

Yeah I spotted that too!

It looks as though the bike has a CVT, or something similar, as you see the bell housing, then what appears a cover from the center of the B.H to the rear shaft drive by the looks.

Could be wrong, it's nice and compact that's for sure