Yanclone engine noises

[andrewaust]

As previously posted I had a go at running up a turbo today. Before I even done this I thoroughly check engine condition and have a trick to stop the knock using a small amount of LPG "Being very careful" which is "really important" and noticed a new noise on the lower front RHS where the gears for the counter balancer meshes.

So off came the cowling checking for any roughness or play of main bearing which revealed everything is good, super smooth and no play "PHEW". I started the engine and the noise was still there, I also checked for rubbing of the flywheel etc, nothing.

After all of this I feel the gears of the counter balancer and crank may have become noisy.

Next move will be checking the removable oil filter for signs of metal.

Until I find the culprit the turbo experiments are on hold !!




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[coachgeo]

...trick to stop the knock using a small amount of LPG "Being very careful" which is "really important" ...

Very intresting. so much so I started a new thread on this subject. Didn't want to highjack this one.

New thread

https://www.dieselbikeforum.com/view ... ?f=3&t=964

[Stuart]

My Charnwood Hatz 350 started making an odd noise once. It went on for days and I couldn't locate the sorce. Then, as quickly as it came, it stopped never to return. Odd It never affected performance though. Maybe it was all the tin pellets I had bouncing about in the tank They worked well though

[andrewaust]

Update , noise has gotten louder, so I'm thinking my engine is having the same problem Charles Altmann's yanclone had, that the main cartridge ball bearing is failing , so it looks like a strip down. If I attack it now minimal engine damage would have been done.

If it is the bearings "China junk" and replace them with quality ones and have the same problem, I'd have to wonder/question if these yanclones are suitable for motorcycle conversions.

I also have a new spare engine, but might leave the old one in and put good bearings into that one! Why put the new engine in if it's only going to do 11,000 K's and die? I'll do the intelligent thing and purchase a complete set of good bearings for the new engine and install them before initial use.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed it's only the bearings




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[Stuart]

That's bad news mate and as you say not the first time a chinese clone has gone down. My worst fear is that many guys here are building machines that will fail a lot sooner than they should. I'm sure none of us want to be part of a movment built on sand as it were
I can only pass on advice I picked up from a Hamm rally a while back, from a guy who had worked for a leading diesel engine manufacturer (Hatz as it happens). He indicated that if he were to go for a cheaper clone it would have to be a Kipor engine as he believed these to be of better quality.
Can't help thinking about that American guy who was in charge of getting Japanese industry back on its feet after WW2. Above anything else he said it was important for the manufacturers to build quality into their products. If this was done, people would always come back for more. This they did and I think they got the balance about right. Unlike the Chinese it would seem.

Stuart

[andrewaust]

Yes mate, a real bummer!

Maintenance has been strict, every 2000 K's the oil has been changed, also changing the oil at 100 K's, then 1000 K's, when new. 99.9 percent of its life the engine has been below it's nominated max speed of 3800rpm.

So if bearings or any other part is going to fail, I'd have to point to quality.

I'll keep you guy's posted to what I find.



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[Crazymanneil]

Are these engines failing due to weaker crankcases and bearings? Or is it because they have fixed injection timing that means the thing is designed to run at > 3000 rpm all day? Seems to me that the injection timing would be quite advanced at lower rpms and give the bottom end a hard time. Maybe its a combination?

Just wondering...

n

[andrewaust]

Are these engines failing due to weaker crankcases and bearings? Or is it because they have fixed injection timing that means the thing is designed to run at > 3000 rpm all day? Seems to me that the injection timing would be quite advanced at lower rpms and give the bottom end a hard time. Maybe its a combination?

Just wondering...

n

Yes good observation Neil! I have sent an email to Charles Altmann, I'll see how his engine is going since he changed the bearings. Your right, the timing is fairly advanced, I knocked my engine forward a couple of degrees BTDC to try and quieten the engine a little, but like you said, running fixed timing is a pain.

I'm keen to see what brand of bearing they have used, although like everything china, NTN etc could be cloned NTN !!

Bearing noise is the only thing I can think of that is causing the noise, when it was quieter I also thought gears on the crank and counter balancer. I'll soon know and post my findings.



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[smokyjoe]

A bit of an off-topic post, but this is the honest truth because I saw it with my own eyes!

An aviation enthusiast showed me a new-old-stock early Japanese (may have been pre-WW2) large bearing for a radial aircraft engine. The box was definitely Japanese, but was marked "Made in USA", this was also etched into the bearing race. It didn't lie, it was made in Usa Japan! Another time I saw a stripped down engine from a Zero that I believe was a near copy of a Wright Whirlwind. Some of the bearings were marked "Timken", either they were US prewar stock that found their way into wartime aircraft, or they were fakes! Anyhow, history showed (unfortunately for the US of A and allies) that these were pretty darned good bearings!

My mind escapes me what the name of that American was who helped Japanese industry after WW2, was it Deming? He wrote a book that I read long ago when I was into manufacturing, very interesting.

I am going to try that propane trick on my old Hatz, hopefully I won't hear something that I don't want to!

[coachgeo]

A bit of an off-topic post, but this is the honest truth because I saw it with my own eyes!

An aviation enthusiast showed me a new-old-stock early Japanese (may have been pre-WW2) large bearing for a radial aircraft engine. The box was definitely Japanese, but was marked "Made in USA", this was also etched into the bearing race. It didn't lie, it was made in Usa Japan! ...!

I had heard of this but never heard it to be verified as much as you just did. hmmm I wonder.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usa,_Ōita

They say different about the Usa trick... but we should believe everything on the net right.

[Sphere]

Although Japan can deliver quality nowadays, they certainly did not from the get-go. Especially in automotive it cost them a few decades to deliver comparable quality.

On the topic of diesel engines, if you were to order crated engines, they would hand out 1 extra for every 10 engines -- so they knew about the level of "quality." Although this is no longer the case for some suppliers, it seems certain Yanclones do exhibit problems. Perhaps they just need some more time like the Japanese, but I think a major factor is that the main goal is export, and the internal market is relatively small.

[smokyjoe]

I have a fair quantity of Chinese machinist tools and lathe bits, milling cutters, etc. I have seen such varying quality that I wonder how the quality control is at some of these factories. I recently bought a box of drills. They are so hard that they are brittle and it is almost impossible to use them without having them shatter. But, another box that SEEMS to have come from the same source is OK, but not up to US or present Japanese standards. I think that with much of the Chinese mechanical stuff you get what you get and it is "buying a pig in a poke" as the saying goes. Same thing may be present in bearing rollers and races, maybe the heat treating is OK on the race but the rollers are soft. Or vice-versa. 10,000 km later..............

As another off-topic addition, it is ironic that about 5 years after seeing the "Made in USA" Japanese bearing I bought a small box of WW2 US bombing reconnaissance photos . Among them was a nice high-altitude photo of Usa, Japan! I think I kept that one.

[Stuart]

Right on SmokyJoe, Deming it was
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming

Stuart

[andrewaust]

Here's the funny punch line, the bearing has NTN on it , I thought NTN bearings were made in Japan, just like you guy's have said bits come from everywhere, clone of clones even.

The good part! There's no hard facing to be found in the oil, the bearing doesn't appear to have failed in that sense, rather it has become noisy, once I get it pressed off and a new one of good quality fitted I'll probably pull the cage and inspect it further to find out exactly why it went noisy.

Bearing on the counter balancer etc will be replaced too.

I've placed the spare engine into the bike tonight, so I'm mobile on the M/cycle again. Actually this engine seems quieter then the other regarding diesel knock, also pulls a little better, or is it my imagination ................ loll.

Certainly been an interesting week.



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[Diesel Dave]

The benefit of these engines are the fact they are easily rebuilt, apart from a few bearing pullers there are few special tools needed.

At leats the parts are of a manageable size, bigger than those tiny petrol motorcycle parts and small enough to be man handled on your own.

Keep the faith.
Dave

[balboa_71]

Speaking of doing a rebuild:
Since I'm back in the diesel bike riding experience, I know the time will come when I have to change out my bearings and or replace my "clone of a Kama clone" engine. Has anyone documented an easy way to tear one of the "simple" engines down in layman terms? I can build special pullers if need be, but I know there will something special to over come during the rebuild process......just curious.
As it was 3 years ago, my engine knocks so loud, it overwhelms to exhaust note coming out of my bikes straight pipe

Thanks,
Cris

[Diesel Dave]

Chris,

Don't worry they are really simple to tear down, the only real problem I have usually is getting the flywheel off.

I had this problem again tonight, centre bolt has a LH thread, remove with a 12v 'wheel nut gun', apply home made puller and tighten centre puller bolt, smack with hammer - nothing.

Tighten some more and smack repeatedly with 4lb lump hammer - nothing

Tighten puller some more with help of long spanner and hammer - break off the bolt head - Grrrrr

Apply mucho heat from Map gas torch and tighten again - nothing.

Retire to kitchen for a cuppa and a little cry.

Return to the job and replace M7 cap head screws holdng the puller in place with high tensile M7 bolts and tighten up again with little socket set, tighten up evenly and BANG flywheel pops off! Scared the sh*t out of myself.

You will need a manual for the Yanma type engine, just for the clearances and setup data.

I'm beginning to dispair about these Yanma clone motor's Greaves and Lombardini's easily run to their 5000 hour rebuild times and possibly twice as long with more frequent oil changes and a bit of TLC.

Keep the faith.

Dave

[Sphere]

I wonder if this isn't turning into a witch hunt? How many motors do you know of, that have actually died...

OK, so you need to replace the main bearings, which is a pain, but it may very well be that replacing the bearings will turn them into a reliable engine once again. Or maybe I have too much faith... Andrew, don't keep us in suspense too long mate

[andrewaust]

OK quick update! Ordered a new high speed bearing today @ nearly $70 AUD. Lugged crank with bearing into the bearing centre, he seems to think the bearing is a legit Japan NTN bearing, which led both of us scratching our heads as to why the bearing has become noisy, I cannot see any hard facing breakdown though.

My puller wont look at pulling the bearing off, so I have to pick up the new bearing tomorrow and chase someone down to press it on. I won't destroy the old bearing yet as the outer race needs to be in good nick to get the bugger off. The gear for the counter balancer sits on the same side allowing only a small gap to wedge a special bearing extractor in. My best bet is to take it to the local motorcycle mechanic, as they are pressing this kind of stuff all the time.

More to come



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[Diesel Dave]

Does it feel rough to turn by hand?

[Crazymanneil]

was there free play in the bearings?

n

[andrewaust]

Yes the bearing is rough to turn by hand, I'm interested to see the balls, the cage nearly completely hides them. Surprisingly there is no free play, it is easy to get the bearing to nip up, so one or more balls might have flat spots, the only way I heard this bearing was with a little gas fumigation. The new engine is really quiet, no rumbles at all.

I agree sphere with your comment, a new main bearing and off the engine will go again. Other parts I have thoroughly inspected and found cams etc are all good, the engine never used oil, started easy and really ran fine, that is why I thought it a good idea to change the bearing before any failure. I'm going to keep an eye on rpm with this new engine.

The 10hp yanclones are also getting hard to get hold of here, so keeping the engines in good condition is a really sensible idea.

Chris, the engines are easy to pull down, I've left the head on, only taking the rocker cover off momentarily to loosen off the rocker adjusters so I could pull the cam assembly out. The fuel pump was also loosened to do the same.

They are a really easy engine to work on, get hold of the yanmar L100 manual in pdf format, the link is on here somewhere, if you have good mechanical skills it's an absolute breeze, the only thing you might need help with is the pressing off and pressing on of the main roller bearing.

my engine knocks so loud, it overwhelms to exhaust note coming out of my bikes straight pipe

Yes I know, they really knock hey , that is normal for yanclones and many other single diesels with little noise shielding. The sudden burning really gives it a hard knock, the fact that there is no variable timing also makes the engine unnecessarily louder then they could be.




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[balboa_71]

Dave and Andrewaust,
Thank you both for answering! Just to clear things up in my mine, I can only picture 3 bearings that are crank related: A. one behind flywheel; B. one on rod big end; C. plain type on pto end of crank. Which bearing is needing replacement? Does the bearing "B" on rod ever go out? One would think the darn thing is getting a good workout with all the darn bang/clang and bang some more racket the engine makes I understand the timing issue, in fact, Dave coached me years ago on how to retard timing by shimming the pump up (which kinda worked, but I decided to go back to stock setting).
As for pulling the flywheel, is this a puller that straddles the end of the crank and you hold it in place with 3 or 4 screws turned into tapped holes in the flywheel? If so Dave, the screws were streching real bad until you went with the grade 8 version.
If we could get decent engines here in the US, I'd by one, but Hatz wants too much $$$ for their 1B40. There is however, a Robin engine that is 8 hp or so but no electric start (no alternator either), so that's not good. We need some of the engines that you'll can get in Europe. Problem is there's no market for them and out "green" wanna be government hates diesels.

Thanks,
Cris

[Sphere]

What about the 600 kubota twin or kohler/lombardini/ruggerini? Seems like you would have plenty access to decent engines in the states? Aren't they any good? I don't think the Hatz has variable injection timing either, so I guess you can take that one off your list.

[coachgeo]

the Kohler/Lomb.-Rugg. has not been in the US long so ifffff you know where to look you can buy them new and they cost a very shiny penny. Used is pretty non existant right now. Same for Briggs and Strat/Dihatsu.

Shiny penney as 3 to 5 times the cost of a Yanmar clone or other simular clones or chinese yuck

For example.. at the upper end of cost. A Lombardini like Heiko uses or a Diahatsu ... cost more money than a used running Triumph Tiger 1996-2003. Like nearly 1,000 dollars more.

[balboa_71]

There used to be plenty of used Kubota's on ebay. But here lately, they've dwindled in number, in fact, a lot of used diesels are gone from the market. No more Changfa's (really good Chinese knock off of Yanmar), and very few of anything else. Of course, one can find a Detroit diesel or a VW 1.6L/1.9L for the asking.
I think they're out to get us bikers.....

Cris

[pietenpol2002]

The Surplus Center has the little 13.7 Caterpillar engines in stock again - 34 of them to be precise, for $699.99. From somewhere deep in the recesses of mind is the belief that this engine is built by Perkins. Can anyone confirm that?

Ron

https://www.surpluscenter.com/Item.asp? ... em=28-1726

[albertaphil]

I can't speak to the reliability of the little perkins, but at 180lbs, that is a lot of lbs per hp. A guy in Calgary was advertising several of those same engines on Kijiji for $1475 each.

[andrewaust]

Dave and Andrewaust,
Thank you both for answering! Just to clear things up in my mine, I can only picture 3 bearings that are crank related: A. one behind flywheel; B. one on rod big end; C. plain type on pto end of crank. Which bearing is needing replacement? Does the bearing "B" on rod ever go out? One would think the darn thing is getting a good workout with all the darn bang/clang and bang some more racket the engine makes I understand the timing issue, in fact, Dave coached me years ago on how to retard timing by shimming the pump up (which kinda worked, but I decided to go back to stock setting).
As for pulling the flywheel, is this a puller that straddles the end of the crank and you hold it in place with 3 or 4 screws turned into tapped holes in the flywheel? If so Dave, the screws were streching real bad until you went with the grade 8 version.
If we could get decent engines here in the US, I'd by one, but Hatz wants too much $$$ for their 1B40. There is however, a Robin engine that is 8 hp or so but no electric start (no alternator either), so that's not good. We need some of the engines that you'll can get in Europe. Problem is there's no market for them and out "green" wanna be government hates diesels.

Thanks,
Cris

Hi Chris


It's bearing A mate, the one on the flywheel side that I am replacing, and the reason why I pulled the bearing as early as I did. If this ball roller bearing fails it will contaminate the oil with fine hard facing metal, if the "strainer type" oil filter doesn't filter it out, this metal will go through the pump, up to bearing C and also bearing B destroying them as well, then you would have a big engine problem.

I pulled the large flywheel off with a 3 arm puller, locating the arms in the 3 holes. Tighten the puller until good resistance is felt, give the puller a gentle bang with a copper hammer, if not copper a plain hammer "but gentle", then the puller should come off.

Exactly Chris! I have the same problem here in OZ regarding the pricing of engines, I could not substitute/fund 4K for an engine for a diesel bike project, my budget didn't, and doesn't permit such expenditure, the whole project had a 5-6K budget which included purchasing a petrol Enfield, diesel engine "actually purchased 2" registration and engineering certification and red tape payments.


Hope this helps a little Chris



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[andrewaust]

OK! The bearing had a couple of very small flat spots "peened" on two balls, just visible by eye, but was enough to make the bearing run rough. Question is when would it fail ? I'd say in the next couple of thousand K's, but then again it might have gone for longer.

The guy from CBC bearings took an interest in finding a plausible answer, called there expert guru in Sydney who though it might be from oil starvation which is interesting. I know there wouldn't be and absolute heap of oil getting to it, but enough for lubrication. Was the bearing running a little to tight, did the fact that I took the engine approx 340 rpm over suggested maximum have something to do with it "could have "

So! I'll keep RPM down to suggested redline, as far as maintenance, I'm changing the oil every 2000 K's, cannot do better then that. Was something floating around in the sump to jam the balls "actually could have" I've found little bits of hard stuff in the filter screen, do they clean the aluminium casting of all dags out properly at manufacturer?

I'd say all will be well with the NTN 6308 C3 high speed bearing, from viewing the original I feel it was just a standard 6308! Price comparison = $26 standard, $68 high speed.

Next report! When engine is back together and running - this should be on the weekend.

Thank you guy's for your posts, its good communication and sensible discussion like this that problems can be addressed, looked at and hopefully solved.





A