2nd Fuel Tank for Vegetable Oil Fuelling

[Darren]

I'm planning on getting my Enfield set up to run, reliably, on vegetable oil and have been keeping a look out for a second tank to use for a twin tank conversion.

A recent discussion helped see http://www.dieselbike.net/phpBB-2.0.21/ ... .php?t=432

Fiddler has been a star and sent me a spare 1995 Harley Sportster oil tank, he had kicking about, to try. Price was right

This tank had been modified to also act as a battery tray.
I got sent a few photos -


I was hoping that when it turned up I could remove the toolbox and fit the tank in it's place with the battery tray fitting between the rear mudguard and frame to fill the space currently taken by my battery.... Failing this maybe I could cut the battery tray away and leave the battery in it's current tray.

Today I introduced the fuel tank to the bike - initial inspection looked like it might all fit together fine

I excitedly pulled out my tools and being careful not to use my 'resting / recovering' arm for any serious spanner pulling I stripped the tool box, Hatz engine control electrics box, battery and tray from the bike. I offered up the tank and it looked good. A quick undoing of the oil dip stick tube clamp and a mudguard stay and it was almost home - the pipe nozzles fowl the frame and stop it fitting right in. With the tank at it's current angle they are not at the bottom so this is no great shame. Other than that the tank will tuck back under the seat nicely




In an ideal world it would sit a bit further towards the back of the bike - filling the space left by the toolbox (seeing this part of the frame exposed I find makes the bike look a bit strange) and allowing access to the air filter without having to remove the tank. But for something of a somewhat awkward shape, designed for another bike I think I've done well.

Maybe when the tank matches the rest of the paint it will not look quite as strange to my eye....

The idea is to use this one for diesel and switch to the main tank (with vegetable oil) once the engine has run for a bit. I've yet to figure out how I'm going to heat the vegetable oil - I'm thinking about trying to fit some kind of oil cooling radiator, somewhere a bit inconspicuous, in the flow of hot air from the engine.

[SUMO]

not knocking your work at all [quite the opposite] but you should be able to mix veg oil to about 70%oil 30% diesel and still start and run well.

unless you are doing a lot of really long runs then making effectively a pre-mix will save a lot of effort - i know id forget to switch over back to the diesel tank a few miles from home to clear the lines so it will start again when cold.

premixing makes it so the % of diesel keeps the oil thin enough not to wreck your fuel pump and still start good cold - in the depths of winter if your starting gets hard then simply adjust your mix to 50% 50% or whatever makes it start - infinitely tuneable.

just a thought - you could even run the 2 tanks of premix and extend your range a nice amount.

this way you dont have heating issues of the oil and you can just run straight diesel any time you like if you are out and about and need to fill up

keep at it

[Darren]

Hello Sumo,

Running a 70% veg / 30% diesel blend is still asking for trouble with a direct injection engine- in my opinion. Cold starts are the big problem.

I wrote a bit about this here at http://www.dieselbike.net/phpBB-2.0.21/ ... highlight=

There is also a fairly good explanation at
http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/for ... p?tid=1553

Also I wrote a bit about blends at
http://vegburner.co.uk/blends.htm

[Fiddler]

Darren'

Glad it worked out, thats a bag of chips you owe me
Ok slightly odd looking to the untrained eye but otherwise it follows the frame rail and as you say when its painted Im sure it will look fine.
Let me know if you want the battery, I'll put it up on the classified section otherwise.
Do you have any plans for the redundant Enfield tool box? This is a bit cheeky but I wondered if it would fit on the left side of the Harley and make a convenient compartment for the starter relay, light relay and fuse box that are currently exposed.

Cheers, Mark

[oldbmw]

In france pump diesel contains a little under 10% of veggie oil. My car will idle and pull better but does not rev quite so high before emitting black smoke

[Tortilladiesel]

I read Darrens post regaring the ring gumming and warnings about veggie oil and WVO causing engine breakdown. I have run several engines on FAME (Fatty Acid Methyl Esther) and never experienced any difficulities. I have upto present never taken any of these engines apart though. So my question is; is there anybody here that have any experiences regarding FAME causing engine troubles??

[Darren]

No personal experience but the way I understand it good quality FAME should not cause problems.

Exceptions would be in very cold conditions or with the very latest emissions reduction technology - diesel particulate filter (DPF). With DPF every now and then the engine control unit (ECU) completes a filter clean process. This involves the injection of fuel late in the engine cycle so that the fuel burns in (and cleans) the exhaust filter. This works fine with diesel fuel but there are concerns of the compatibility of biodiesel with this process. It is theorised that biodiesel thrown into a cooling cylinder (late in the cycle will get onto and past the rings and possibly cause problems with ring gumming and lubricating oil dilution/polymerisation.

[visser]

I've caught word that a fella here in Ontario is looking into having custom 22 litre tanks that are split inside made that will fit an enfield. He hasn't figured out yet how he will switch between them, but thinks he might be able to find some sort of petcock that could accomplish that... I will keep you posted if I ever get my hands on one of those tanks.

[sbrumby]

If I were wanting to do what you need I would just take the angle grinder and split a tank in half. Put the half on a flat sheet and cut out the divider. Get someone to tig divider to one half then tig the second half on. Just swill some diesel round the tank first if it had petrol in it before you start.

[roverthetop]

for mine i used switching valves, a fuel pump, and a vegtherm to heat the oil. the pump was there to push through the valve as i had to remote it as it wouldnt fit anywhere neatly in line. they are behind the side covers on the green kwaker i did. its really too bad we arent closer. i'd love to split your tank for you and shoot all your pieces to match.
visser- a 3 way solenoid valve would be a flip switch away from swapping tanks.

[Diesel Dave]

Is that an ally dinner plate covering the fan air intake?

How does the motor cooling breathe?

Dave

[taildraggin]

Darren:

To clarify, it sounds like you want to run straight or waste oil in the second tank rather than biodiesel? That might be confusing some folks.

- Charlie

[Darren]

Dave,

It was an stainless plate and at the time the engine had no cooling fan. The cowling the plate is bolted to is from a Hatz 1B20 (although I did not realise that when I bought it...)

I've since fitted a fan and replaced the engine cowling with the correct 1B30 which was necessary for the fan to fit.....

I've got a bit of stainless with lots of holes drilled fitted where the plate was.

taildraggin,

Yes I'm doing all this to run on vegetable oil either used or unused rather than biodiesel which I have already used in the main tank without problems (except it pulling dirt out of the tank and blocking the fuel filter)

[visser]

Roverthetop,

This vegtherm that you use, where did you get it, what model is it, and how much power does it draw?
Would a Hatz 1b30 with electric start produce enough electricity to run a inline heating unit for WVO or SVO?

[smokyjoe]

I've been trying to work out a WVO heater incorporated in the exhaust, here it is (only at the paper stage right now):

Double wall exhaust 1-1/4" and 1-3/4? My engine sucks air from the head, cyl and oil cooler and blows it out a bunch of holes around the flywheel. Tap off some of this warm air (don't need much) and blow it into the exhaust between the two tubes near the muffler, at the top (near head) tap off very hot air and run that through an oil cooler now used as a fuel heater. In between somewhere put a butterfly valve with mechanical thermostat to control oil temperature. Sounds simple, but will probably end up looking like a Rube Goldberg mousetrap.

The fuel pump on my engine is mounted right above the oil cooler (not modded yet for WVO) , on a 70 degree F night with the engine warmed up and idling the fuel temperature along the pipe to the injector measured 150 deg F -probably plenty warm for WVO as it is, and I expect it to get hotter as it is running under power. Since I plan on driving this bike in fairly cool weather, I am sure I will need the "exhaust oil preheater". I7m planning on using a big Harley oil tank for the starting fuel tank for diesel or bio, then switching to the main tank for WVO. Also thinking of adding a loop for hot air to heat the fuel tank, but this just has to get hot enough to make it through the fuel line and valve to the preheater.

I'm afraid of using a vegtherm as they draw quite a bit of current and I don't have much horsepower to generate it.

Ride safe

[roverthetop]

visser,
16a draw. i paid $125 USD. don't remember from whom. they're all over the place. vegtherm standard. heats to 160 F in 40 seconds. not sure if the 1b30 produces enough electricity. maybe rewire the rectifier a tad?
b

[roverthetop]

http://www.plantdrive.com/shop/home.php?cat=250

$99 USD here... i might have to order some. hmmmmmmmm

[smokyjoe]

I saw a homemade "vegtherm" made out of a VW glow plug, but it had no thermostat and it ended up overheating the oil and catching the car on fire!

I was thinking of using a 24 Volt glow plug from the GM V-8 diesel in a Humvee, I've seen them new on eBay cheap, I think they are 10mm thread. Then have a closed loop electronic temp control (adjustable) with a mechanical maximum temp "safety" thermostat. The 24 Volt plug running on 12 Volts wouldn't get red hot (tried it with an old unknown 24 Volter I had, probably the same with the GM plug) but you'd have to be careful with the temp so you wouldn't coke the oil, especially if the heater was after the fuel filter.

Do the vegtherms have any type of thermostat? Seems like a lot of wattage to dissipate if they don't.

[roverthetop]

the vegtherms i got had a temp limiter. when it reached 170 or so (can't recall the exact) it shut itself off. then on again when it gets too low. easy wiring, everything you need, especially for a bike, ease of install, and at $100 USD, i like the peace of mind. tested and true... warranty...
i'm thinking on my harley build to use a harley starter back by the tranny (where they go) and use the punsun starter as a generator. not that i need it, but why not?
what about hooking up a small alternator on the rear wheel? or a bigger battery?

[visser]

Smoking Joe...

Regarding your idea about exhaust heated oil...

I wonder - since the consumption in these engines is quite low, and therefore flows through the lines slowly, I wonder if one couldn't just use a solid metallic fuel line of some sort and simply wrap it around the exhaust where it exits the engine? Maybe wrap it 5 or 6 times around - once the exhaust is hot it would conduct through to the oil easily enough.

Of course, the exhaust is positioned lower than the injector, so maybe some sort of pump would be needed? Anyway... just thinking out loud...

[visser]

Question....

from the Hatz 1b30 manual, I think my alternator outputs:

Alternator charging current at 3000 / 1500 r.p.m. 14 V - 14 A / 7 A – 28 V - 10 A / 5 A

Now... I am thinking of installing a vegtherm heater once I figure out a dual-tank setup. The vegtherm standard is rated 20A at 12V...

Seeing how the output of my alternator is lower than the ratings for the vegtherm, what would happen? Would the alternator fail to charge the battery since all of the power is drawn from the vegtherm? Would the vegtherm fail to heat to its proper temp? All of the above?

[smokyjoe]

Regarding the vegtherm- Probably all of the above! The battery wouldn't charge, the vegtherm wouldn't reach its correct temp, and POSSIBLY you would burn out either your alternator windings or the rectifier diodes. This being of course if the alternator current is not vastly underrated, which I doubt. I think nowadays if the spec says 14 amps max, they MEAN 14 amps!

The other alternative is to make your own "vegtherm" with less current draw. This could be done by wrapping a layer of high temp. insulating paper around the fuel line and winding a coil of resistance wire over that, the correct amount for the current you want to draw. Of course the windings would have to be insulated from each other and lots of other good stuff. If the correct amount of wattage is dissipated, it wouldn't burn the oil (real bad if it is after the filter!) and would keep the oil at a good temperature, around 160 to 200 deg. F. This is basically how the inline electric fuel filters for diesel cars and trucks are made. All of this can be calculated out and would work really well.

My Hatz E79 fuel gets HOT after running a while, hot enough that on a 70 degF day it wouldn't need any additional heat. I don't know if it'd be hot enough riding down the road with the wind hitting the fuel line, the fuel pump and line is on the front of the engine so it would probably need some mummy-wrap insulation even on the warmest days.

Even making an air box with an oil cooler (turned fuel heater) in it getting the hot air from the fan would maybe work.

I like the idea of the vegtherm as a "final" fuel heater for those cool days when using waste heat from the engine just isn't enough. I used engine coolant on my VW to heat the veg oil, but on a cold day the engine just didn't produce enough heat, I could have probably drained the radiator and still run the darn thing without it overheating! There were some days when the temp gauge barely made it off the peg.

I'm planning on making a pretty elaborate exhaust heated oil setup as described before (but gotta get my bike running first!), I think that thermostat control in that case is mandatory. If the oil is heated hot enough it will start to leave hard cruddy deposits and eventually carbonize which would ruin your pump and/or injectors. Also another fear I have had in the past with the veggie car is that I've never been able to find a spec for maximum fuel temperature for the filter. Some filters are glued together and if it all got too hot it would be disaster!

[visser]

Hey Joe,

I just searched about making a vegtherm at home and I found these instructions:
http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/ ... 9411095211

Basically he suggests taking an electric stove element and sizing it according to the temperature/amperage draw desired.

If I were to attempt to make one of these, and considering that my alternator's max output is 14A, what would be the maximum amperage that I would want to draw?

Now... to incorporate such a device... how to heat the fuel?
Presuming I can make a vegtherm within specs, then how to transfer the heat to the fuel? Would having a metallic (i.e. stainless) fuel line wrapped or parallel to the heater work? Would that conduct enough of the heat to the fuel?

[sbrumby]

Dont know wether this will help http://www.vow2.co.uk/vow2.htm

[oldbmw]

Hey Joe,

I just searched about making a vegtherm at home and I found these instructions:
http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/ ... 9411095211

Basically he suggests taking an electric stove element and sizing it according to the temperature/amperage draw desired.

If I were to attempt to make one of these, and considering that my alternator's max output is 14A, what would be the maximum amperage that I would want to draw?

Now... to incorporate such a device... how to heat the fuel?
Presuming I can make a vegtherm within specs, then how to transfer the heat to the fuel? Would having a metallic (i.e. stainless) fuel line wrapped or parallel to the heater work? Would that conduct enough of the heat to
the fuel?

Halfords used to sell a clip on water heater to make a cup of tea. just plug it into a cigar lighter socket and hang in into the cup. This might make the basis for a fuel heater.

[roverthetop]

making something to work doesnt seem too hard.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/MERCEDES ... 0277025429
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/WVO-SVO- ... 0255319768
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Vegetabl ... 0249474911
the last one they seem to be able to change temps/ draw. maybe a quick question off to them to be sure?
brett

[visser]

I got a reply from the VOW2 guy...

the problem is that if I make/find one that draws less current then it will not heat the oil to be hot enough in a short amount of time...

He suggested I make a sort of heat exchanger using copper tubing wrapped around the exhaust - but he said overheating might become an issue then.

Maybe for the amount of fuel I consume I should just convert the svo to biodiesel and not worry about heating it.

[smokyjoe]

Never thought of using old heating elements, but I am wondering too if it isn't easier all around to just make some Bio (I would only need around 5 gallons a week) instead of making heaters, etc. Will probably go the bio route first now that I've thought about it for a while and later work on a heater. Just too many projects to do here!

If I haven't completely lost it, with the stove element to heat the element red hot with 12 volts the current through the element will be the same as at 120 Volts or 240 Volts, just the percentage of length of the element will be the percent of voltage change. So, you'd probably use a fairly long length to get oil up to temperature. How about if using a round cross-section element using a pair of compression fittings with O rings on either end of a piece of tubing around the element, tap in and out of the tube with a T for oil flow? Could even use an electric water heater thermostat for the experiment cranked all the way up some will go to 180 Deg. F. Not rated usually for direct current, I'd have a manual switch inline just in case, but should work good at 10 Amps or so.

As far as current draw for the heater-

A 45 watt headlight draws about 3.75 Amperes
The tail light about 2 Amperes

If you're lucky (and probably at max RPM) the alternator output is 14 Amperes- that'd give you about 8 Amperes to play with, if your battery was almost fully charged and no other loads. At 13 volts that's 104 Watts, not a bad amount of energy to heat something (think of a 100 Watt light bulb's heat output). We only have to heat a trickle of fuel here, it shouldn't take too much if well insulated and the fuel is at a decent temperature to begin with. Problem lies in heating the whole tank full of fuel to get it to flow through filters and to the pump. If you're in the cold, forget it, try heating 4 gallons of solid vegetable oil at 20 Degrees F (inside a metal gas tank with the wind blowing by at 50 MPH!) to around 70 degrees until it'll barely flow, then to about 140 or so to get it through the filter element. This was a problem with my VW vegburner.

The other problem I've only read about is veg oil fuel depositing carbon in the combustion chamber and on the (relatively) cold piston top causing the deposit on the piston to hit the top of the combustion chamber. This was on the web and was a test conducted by some university on small engines burning straight veggie with no extra heating of the oil, probably a flawed experiment. I understand that in countries like India farmers are running small pumps, grain grinders, etc. 24/7 on straight veggie oil so it probably works OK. There's quite a few bikes out there that are WVO fueled, but I haven't yet seen much about what they are doing to heat it.

It's all worth doing, in my opinion. We've all got to try things and the best methods will settle out, and what is best for me may not be the best for everybody or even anyone else, it's just what will work out the best in your circumstance and with what you've got to work with.

[Diesel Dave]

Fit a tiny turbo and run the fuel through the water cooling jacket.

Will get mighty hot, pretty quickly!

Dave