I figured, 30% more power must be able to carry one tooth more..
Also-reply modus- more people ride with the same set-up(that means, also with 19T sprocket) and their engines manage well.
13 hp yanclone lacks power
Moderators: Dan J, Diesel Dave, Crazymanneil, Stuart
Re: 13 hp yanclone lacks power
Well, took some time of and focused my attention to my other bikes.
Checked again more things;
the markings on the flywheel are okay and injection timing also okay.
The injector is working properly.
power in low and mid-range rpm's is good, but higher the rpm from that point, the less power it gets..
maybe a clue; When going full-throttle, i can twist back the throttle grip a long way before 'power' and rpm decreases..
Could the fuel pump itself be defective??
Checked again more things;
the markings on the flywheel are okay and injection timing also okay.
The injector is working properly.
power in low and mid-range rpm's is good, but higher the rpm from that point, the less power it gets..
maybe a clue; When going full-throttle, i can twist back the throttle grip a long way before 'power' and rpm decreases..
Could the fuel pump itself be defective??
-
alexanderfoti
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- Location: London
Re: 13 hp yanclone lacks power
arnaud wrote: maybe a clue; When going full-throttle, i can twist back the throttle grip a long way before 'power' and rpm decreases..
Could the fuel pump itself be defective??
That's just the governor operating as it should.
Re: 13 hp yanclone lacks power
Perhaps you have long since resolved your low power problem, as it is actually very straightforward. But for what it's worth, yes, you are very much overgeared! Apart from personal experimentation with sprocket sizes on my 186 8.5 bhp diesel, all the way from its original 19T fitted by Henry Price at my request, down through the 17T, the 16T, & currently the 14T, - I can confirm that the 14T far outstrips the 19T & 17T for overall road speed maintenance in adverse conditions & fuel economy. The 16T, which tops out at a gps 52 mph @ 3600, which the 186 can pull to maximum revs under neutral conditions, is possibly the best compromise for fuel economy & road speed under flat road still wind conditions, - but can struggle in adverse road or wind conditions due to its lack of torque compared to the 350 petrol it replaced. The other aspect which confirms overgearing, is the fact that your engine can easily top out in the lower gears. There's nothing wrong with it!
I have recently bought the 192 499cc Winsun diesel engine, & the manual makes fascinating reading. The respective power outputs of the diesel series are as follows; 418 cc: 7.6 bhp @ 3000, 8.44 bhp @3600. 456cc: 8.84 bhp @ 3000, 9.65 bhp @ 3600. 499cc: 10.2 bhp @ 3000, 11.0 bhp @ 3600. These are all continuous outputs, & no manufacturer is going to quote LESS power than the engine actually develops. Under transitory overload fuelling to get the engine back up to speed after a sudden resistance, each engine can add a few extra decimal points to the continuous figure. NEVER close to a single horsepower. So the claim of 13 bhp from the 456 is simply farcical. Not even with a turbo! The 462cc German Hatz gives 9.7 bhp, which illustrates the point. Their 517cc engine, (93mm bore, 76mm stroke) gives 9.7 bhp @ 3000, & 10.7 bhp @ 3600.
Now, according to calculations for HP required at the back wheel for our non fairing Enfield friend with a 200 lb rider aboard, with a drag Co-efficient of 0.9, we get a requirement of 8 bhp at the back wheel for 52 mph @ 3600, with the 16T, which also includes rolling resistance. Which is why the 406 can just about manage it in flat road still air conditions. 55 mph, (the 17T @ 3600) requires 9.3 bhp, which means the 456 could just about pull it to full speed in ideal conditions. (remember that you are going to lose the best part of a horsepower between crankshaft & rear wheel at 3600) The 18T (58.3 mph @ 3600) requires 11 bhp at the rear wheel to top out in neutral conditions, meaning that it is already beyond the 456's capability unless you have a strong tail wind or are heading downhill. It may achieve it with a full handlebar fairing to reduce drag, but it is still going to struggle. The 499cc could pull the 18T just fine up to about 57 mph, but full speed is going to leave nothing significant in reserve, unless you fit a fairing which brings the RW requirement down to 10 bhp.
All these figures are for ideal, though not favourable conditions. But obviously, as soon as the lightest headwind or gradient that you can't even see comes up, that poor engine is struggling. BTW, the 19T (61.5 mph @ 3600) requires 12.75 bhp just at the rear wheel, so you are going to need at least 13.5 bhp at the crank to see it reliably on a flat road, - so even the 499 couldn't do it except downhill.
It may be frustrating that these diesels are so low on power, but it is what it is, & we have to gear accordingly. Even the 499 (diesel) only develops 19 ft/lbs at 2600, which is the same peak torque at 2600 as the 350 petrol at 3900. At 3000, the 499 diesel is down to 18 ft/lbs, & 17 ft/lbs @ 3600. The diesel torque figures I gave for the 500 are all overload figures, not continuous, which are 17 ft/lbs @ 3000, & 16 ft/lbs @ 3600. - So power output for the 500 at 3600, even on overload, is 1.5 bhp less than the 350 petrol, which puts out a full 13 bhp at that rpm. Therefore over long gearing is completely counter productive. If you have above a 16T for the 406, which only produces 13.8 ft/lbs peak torque @ 2600, then you are almost continuously on overload fuelling, regardless of what your throttle hand is doing. The governor determines the fuelling, you only set the desired revs with the throttle. Yanclone's are all oversquare engines, big bore/ short stroke. They are designed for high speed work, not to slog. If Enfield don't think the 30 ft/lb 500 petrol should pull taller than a 17T, - why are we sticking an 18T on a 16.5 ft/lb 456, (An engine that has dropped to 15.4 ft/lbs at its 3086 rpm 50 mph cruise speed) let alone a 13.0 ft/lb 406 at the same engine speed?? Best overall performance & mpg comes when an engine is geared comfortably inside its continuous rating at all road speeds. The 406 WILL pull 52 mph @ 3600 with a 16T sprocket, but that is at the outer limit of flat road still wind conditions, which almost never happens. The 15T gives far better perkier performance, better resistance to wind & gradient, & will still average 155 mpg at a 40 mph cruise speed by gps (3000) At 35 mph (the torque peak at 2600) it will attain 170 mpg. & will hold 48 mph (by gps) as long as you need it even in windy conditions, & 45 mph by gps is easily & smoothly sustained at 3333 rpm. The 16T suits the 456 perfectly, (44 mph gps cruise @3055 rpm, or 45 mph @ 3125 rpm) assuring the attainment of 52 mph almost anywhere when you want it, & the 17T gives 46 mph @ 3000 for the 500, & 50 mph @ 3268, & will pull 55 mph easily. I think of these yanclones as producing the peak torque of a petrol single 2/3rds of the capacity, which is further rev restricted to 3600. So a 406cc diesel produces around the same overall torque & horsepower of a 250cc petrol single at 2600, & a 200cc petrol single @ 3600. Gear it accordingly for those modest outputs & you'll get very pleasing performance & economy results.
I have recently bought the 192 499cc Winsun diesel engine, & the manual makes fascinating reading. The respective power outputs of the diesel series are as follows; 418 cc: 7.6 bhp @ 3000, 8.44 bhp @3600. 456cc: 8.84 bhp @ 3000, 9.65 bhp @ 3600. 499cc: 10.2 bhp @ 3000, 11.0 bhp @ 3600. These are all continuous outputs, & no manufacturer is going to quote LESS power than the engine actually develops. Under transitory overload fuelling to get the engine back up to speed after a sudden resistance, each engine can add a few extra decimal points to the continuous figure. NEVER close to a single horsepower. So the claim of 13 bhp from the 456 is simply farcical. Not even with a turbo! The 462cc German Hatz gives 9.7 bhp, which illustrates the point. Their 517cc engine, (93mm bore, 76mm stroke) gives 9.7 bhp @ 3000, & 10.7 bhp @ 3600.
Now, according to calculations for HP required at the back wheel for our non fairing Enfield friend with a 200 lb rider aboard, with a drag Co-efficient of 0.9, we get a requirement of 8 bhp at the back wheel for 52 mph @ 3600, with the 16T, which also includes rolling resistance. Which is why the 406 can just about manage it in flat road still air conditions. 55 mph, (the 17T @ 3600) requires 9.3 bhp, which means the 456 could just about pull it to full speed in ideal conditions. (remember that you are going to lose the best part of a horsepower between crankshaft & rear wheel at 3600) The 18T (58.3 mph @ 3600) requires 11 bhp at the rear wheel to top out in neutral conditions, meaning that it is already beyond the 456's capability unless you have a strong tail wind or are heading downhill. It may achieve it with a full handlebar fairing to reduce drag, but it is still going to struggle. The 499cc could pull the 18T just fine up to about 57 mph, but full speed is going to leave nothing significant in reserve, unless you fit a fairing which brings the RW requirement down to 10 bhp.
All these figures are for ideal, though not favourable conditions. But obviously, as soon as the lightest headwind or gradient that you can't even see comes up, that poor engine is struggling. BTW, the 19T (61.5 mph @ 3600) requires 12.75 bhp just at the rear wheel, so you are going to need at least 13.5 bhp at the crank to see it reliably on a flat road, - so even the 499 couldn't do it except downhill.
It may be frustrating that these diesels are so low on power, but it is what it is, & we have to gear accordingly. Even the 499 (diesel) only develops 19 ft/lbs at 2600, which is the same peak torque at 2600 as the 350 petrol at 3900. At 3000, the 499 diesel is down to 18 ft/lbs, & 17 ft/lbs @ 3600. The diesel torque figures I gave for the 500 are all overload figures, not continuous, which are 17 ft/lbs @ 3000, & 16 ft/lbs @ 3600. - So power output for the 500 at 3600, even on overload, is 1.5 bhp less than the 350 petrol, which puts out a full 13 bhp at that rpm. Therefore over long gearing is completely counter productive. If you have above a 16T for the 406, which only produces 13.8 ft/lbs peak torque @ 2600, then you are almost continuously on overload fuelling, regardless of what your throttle hand is doing. The governor determines the fuelling, you only set the desired revs with the throttle. Yanclone's are all oversquare engines, big bore/ short stroke. They are designed for high speed work, not to slog. If Enfield don't think the 30 ft/lb 500 petrol should pull taller than a 17T, - why are we sticking an 18T on a 16.5 ft/lb 456, (An engine that has dropped to 15.4 ft/lbs at its 3086 rpm 50 mph cruise speed) let alone a 13.0 ft/lb 406 at the same engine speed?? Best overall performance & mpg comes when an engine is geared comfortably inside its continuous rating at all road speeds. The 406 WILL pull 52 mph @ 3600 with a 16T sprocket, but that is at the outer limit of flat road still wind conditions, which almost never happens. The 15T gives far better perkier performance, better resistance to wind & gradient, & will still average 155 mpg at a 40 mph cruise speed by gps (3000) At 35 mph (the torque peak at 2600) it will attain 170 mpg. & will hold 48 mph (by gps) as long as you need it even in windy conditions, & 45 mph by gps is easily & smoothly sustained at 3333 rpm. The 16T suits the 456 perfectly, (44 mph gps cruise @3055 rpm, or 45 mph @ 3125 rpm) assuring the attainment of 52 mph almost anywhere when you want it, & the 17T gives 46 mph @ 3000 for the 500, & 50 mph @ 3268, & will pull 55 mph easily. I think of these yanclones as producing the peak torque of a petrol single 2/3rds of the capacity, which is further rev restricted to 3600. So a 406cc diesel produces around the same overall torque & horsepower of a 250cc petrol single at 2600, & a 200cc petrol single @ 3600. Gear it accordingly for those modest outputs & you'll get very pleasing performance & economy results.
Last edited by John on Sat Jun 23, 2018 3:52 pm, edited 11 times in total.
Re: 13 hp yanclone lacks power
Hi, i did not solve it yet but maybe am on my way.. i will make an other exhaust pipe en will look for an other-not so restrictive- muffler instead of the short bullet muffler ..
any tips for the latter would be welcome. The outer diam. of the pipe will be 38mm so this has to fit in the baffler..
any tips for the latter would be welcome. The outer diam. of the pipe will be 38mm so this has to fit in the baffler..
Re: 13 hp yanclone lacks power
Just a thought.. Even if your fuelling is adjusted sufficient for full torque output, if the upper engine speed is not adjusted for a non loaded 3800, the engine will not be able to rev out under full load to 3600, even if it can ascend to 3600 in the lower gears. Even if the engine smokes at higher speeds in top, suggesting that the engine is at the overload fuelling limit of combustion, it still won't see 3600 if the rev limit screw is too wound in. What happens if the revs are too curtailed when running without load, is that even as the engine approaches full rated speed under load, the governor will start to reign in the fuelling. I noticed this on my 406 with a 14T. I have my speed screw adjusted for 3700 rpm without load, because the short gearing which is well inside the engine's power capacity doesn't need a 200 rpm surplus margin. The gearing gives 45.35 mph @3600. This only requires 5.5 bhp at the back wheel. So the bike zooms up to 44 rapidly,(gps) then creeps up to 45 as the upper rev ceiling is approached, because the governor is pulling things back due to the low rev ceiling I've set. Remember though, if you have the 19T or 18T with the 456, you will never see top speed (61.5 mph or 58.3 mph respectively @3600) under any circumstances other than downhill or with a strong tailwind. For top speed on the level in still wind conditions, only the 17T (55 mph) will allow the 456 to top out.
P.s I once fitted a silencer packed with sound deadening material & a smaller outlet pipe that made the engine quieter than a petrol. I noticed no drop in performance at all. So exhaust restriction is very unlikely to be the culprit. Just keep reminding yourself that the 406 is 8.44 bhp & the 456 is rated at 9.65 bhp @ 3600.
P.s I once fitted a silencer packed with sound deadening material & a smaller outlet pipe that made the engine quieter than a petrol. I noticed no drop in performance at all. So exhaust restriction is very unlikely to be the culprit. Just keep reminding yourself that the 406 is 8.44 bhp & the 456 is rated at 9.65 bhp @ 3600.
Last edited by John on Sat Jun 23, 2018 4:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: 13 hp yanclone lacks power
I 'tuned'the enginn according to the tips of a very helpfull member (flowed head, less testrictive exhaust pipe and muffler, K&N filter, better inlet manifold) but still no increase in power.
At the moment i am very insecure if i understand the working of the governer system.The main spring should be in the outer holes for max. power, right?
picture;
So, 1-A
Right? If not, can anyone explain?
It is only a RPM limiter, and says nothing about teh fuelamount at this point, right?
so a stiffer spring won't help?
At the moment i am very insecure if i understand the working of the governer system.The main spring should be in the outer holes for max. power, right?
picture;
So, 1-A
Right? If not, can anyone explain?
It is only a RPM limiter, and says nothing about teh fuelamount at this point, right?
so a stiffer spring won't help?