modern diesel engines and there possiblities

[Erik "EVA Products]

Gentlemen (and maybe gentlewomen ),

is there anyone on this forum that would like to share knowledge / technical and passion on modern dieselbikes/engines and there setup ?

As i wrote on the German forum I would love it when we could have discussions on a different level than DIY and ruggerini engines.

So i wonder if there is anyone that can join in. (not 1 respons from the German forum sofar )
Or is the knowledge and level i am looking for not available on this planet ........

regards

Erik EVA Products Holland

[Sphere]

It doesn't seem like a lot of diesel engines are being produced specifically for motorcycle use, hence people use general purpose engines. Maybe it is more informative to tell something about the engine you are using if it isn't all hush-hush.

I think you do great work building a diesel bike that actually performs well, but unfortunately I would prefer something non-off-road/all-terrain. Anyway, lets talk engines.

[Andi]

Hi Erik,

I'm new to the forum, in fact this is my first post. I like Diesel engine everything and have looked at your website a few times before with interest.

I like the Diesel Dual Sport concept, should be a great adventure touring bike, something I'm looking to do some day again on a real motorcycle. What I mean by that is, twenty one (21) years ago I rode a Honda XL 100 from Nashville TN to the West coast of Mexico, took me 4 1/2 days stayed down there for 3 months. Not to take anything away from Honda, quite incredible for the little bike to make it on a journey like that, but I think your bike would be great, also considering the fuel economy etc.

I would like to know a little more about your bike above and beyond your website, not really much info there. What engine is it, what kind of transmission, features etc ....... and wow the price is hot, but love the bike from what I can see.

Best of luck with it.

Andi

[Crazymanneil]

Erik,

I am going with a Smart CDI engine for my project which is finally getting moving after about a year. I considered this or the 1.4 VW Polo TDI. I had a contact to modify the VW ecu to remove immobiliser/clocks/abs/etc and know the engine could be tuned to 130bhp but the weight issue (127kg) bothered me. I also believe the VW has unit injectors which are fussy about which fuel you use.

I've just bought the Smart engine (although need to arrange shipping) so I hope I don't regret the decision.

I am a software engineer by trade and have an interest in electronics so I'll be interested in making the thing work. I like to keep things simple but appreciate the extra control given by ECU. I'd rather have the tradeoff so I will put up with the extra complexity.

Its just a shame there seem to be no open source diesel ECU's which could drive the engine (like megasquirt for petol engines). If I had more time perhaps I could develop one, but I have travel plans for the finished bike so will probably have to buy one.

Did you convert your engine to dry sump?

Look forward to talking to you.

Neil

[Andi]

[quote="Erik "EVA Products"]Gentlemen (and maybe gentlewomen ),

is there anyone on this forum that would like to share knowledge / technical and passion on modern dieselbikes/engines and there setup ?

As i wrote on the German forum I would love it when we could have discussions on a different level than DIY and ruggerini engines.

So i wonder if there is anyone that can join in. (not 1 respons from the German forum sofar )
Or is the knowledge and level i am looking for not available on this planet ........

regards

Erik EVA Products Holland[/quote]


Five days later, three responses and three questions, I think all has been said for now, the ball is in your court.

I think you should narrow your comment to this forum, as I'm sure what ever level of knowledge you are looking for is available on this planet ...... somebody is building the engine you are using on your bike. I can't speak for this forum I'm too new here, but I'm a knowledge seeking enthusiast and have for the last six years worked mainly with Diesel/hydraulic heavy equipment, but don't specialize in just Diesel engines.

"Anyway, lets talk engines."

Andi

[oilburner]

In my opinion the lack of response is due to the fact that the aspiration of most of the members of this forum, as evidenced by virtually all of the discussion, is to build a low cost diesel motorcycle which, for most completed projects, has involved installation of an industrial diesel engine into an existing motorcycle chassis. We are all interested in bleeding edge technology and periodically we post our musings and whatifs to solicit comments, but it's the discussion of the nuts and bolts of DIY conversions that will get our projects on the road and subsequently is of most interest to members.

IMHO it's the effort of people like Erik that improves the chance we will one day see a reasonably priced diesel powered motorcycle for the masses. If you have expertise in common rail diesel engine technology, drivetrains, and/or chassis design, I suspect you are the type of person Erik is interested in, even if you are from another planet.

Me, I'll keep plugging away building my DIY industrial diesel powered cruiser. It would be a waste to throw away 7 1/2 years of eyeball design, not to mention all those hacksaw blades and files

[Crazymanneil]

Erik,

I was wondering if you are using the BSG ECU or something else? I am thinking of the BSG one although it looks to be expensive from what I have read.

Neil

[Erik "EVA Products]

Hallo Neil,

thanks for your reply.

yes we are using a modified version of the BSG system.

We are also testing units from italy and an inhouse made version.

And what is a high cost price when you have all the possiblities in the system to have the engine run as it should run. remember that a normal ecu as used in dieselcars like the bosch version has over more that 20000 parameters to adjust.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! a system like the bsg has between 2000 and 200 possiblities.

Remember that we are a motorcycle producer and that is much different than probably your position.

Tell me what you are planning with such and ecu system ?
You also need the software system deliverd by the German BSG company to implement the posiblities you need.

regards Erik EVA Products Holland

[taildraggin]

Eric,

Yes, I for one would like to hear/discuss modern diesel bike design.

I am not an engineer - just a tinkerer, but I think all of us would benefit from understanding where this all can lead.

Here's my understanding of the market - the challenge of designing a successful new motorcycle lies with capturing a segment of the market.

Can diesel do it?

Present diesel bike development seems to have decided military and "3rd world" are the initial, practical markets. Military logisticians want a single fuel and NATO cooks, sails, flys and rides on JP8.

Since you have long stretchs of wilderness and little available petrol/gasoline, the underdeveloped nation market makes some sense. (You have the 'wannabe' adventure market, that goes along with this, mostly in europe.)

The existing 'econo-bike' market leader in the US is a 250cc Kawaski appliance that dominates the 'poor, but proud' market. That thing gets 75mpg and can break the ton, looks good and is fun to ride. You can get a 1 year old used one for $2000/1000 pounds or a spankin' new one for double. I believe that is the mass market that diesel has to breach.

Price. Assuming equivalent performance, a diesel version of the Kaw appliance would be 100mpg. That equals $127/250 quid a year savings in fuel cost. Not much. We're asking a diesel bike to match that economy in initial cost and near parity on operating cost.

The logical extension of the military/undeveloped world bike is the 'boutique' adventure market. That's about all an up-and-coming manufacturer can chase. The small producer can sell around the mass produced appliances - the big companies have too many production, distribution, support and sales channel advantages in the main. The downside is that the initial product cost will be high, reducing the logic of the purchase - a $14,000 diesel KLR650 doesn't make much sense against a gas version at less than half that cost. $8,000 buys a lot of petrol.

Diesel is about economy.

I believe that the VW beetle, Vespa and Honda Dream are the type of market approaches needed for mass acceptance of diesel. Performance here is measured in economy, not quarter-mile or 0-100 times. The Hatz/ Ruggerini/L100 bikes we scroungers are contemplating or are building would be along those lines, if mass produced.

For success, there needs to be a diesel bike that can beat the price and performance (as defined by the market) of the competition. That's the reality a manufacturer and designer face.

Please shatter these comments! What can a modern diesel design do?

[Erik "EVA Products]

@ taildraggin (do you have a first name ?),

I do understand your point however i was trying to get a discussion going on modern dieselengines and their technical/poweroutput possiblities and issues..... I think you touch a different issue namely that a so called price should give a so called market and its advantages.

On your issue I think there are so many more options than you discribe.
For every market there is a product. We had a UN representative overhere to discuss the possiblities the Track T-800CDI to put into service in Africa. Untill now from more sources than the UN (army-police etc) the info is that the petrol bikes brake down to often due to high rpm and fuelconsumption. that costs more than putting the right bike in the right environment. !!! lifespan and extended possiblities look to give more value for money . And don't forget that a petrol bike does not burn any 100% PPO(pure plant oil)...

I like to discuss more on this issue however....

Can we stick to enginering or techical please if possible

regards Erik EVA Products Holland

[Crazymanneil]

[quote="Erik "EVA Products"]Hallo Neil,

thanks for your reply.

yes we are using a modified version of the BSG system.

We are also testing units from italy and an inhouse made version.

And what is a high cost price when you have all the possiblities in the system to have the engine run as it should run. remember that a normal ecu as used in dieselcars like the bosch version has over more that 20000 parameters to adjust.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! a system like the bsg has between 2000 and 200 possiblities.

Remember that we are a motorcycle producer and that is much different than probably your position.

Tell me what you are planning with such and ecu system ?
You also need the software system deliverd by the German BSG company to implement the posiblities you need.

regards Erik EVA Products Holland[/quote]

Hey,

Yes, I've been looking at this some more and you are probably right that the price is not that bad when you consider the development that you are buying into. Its probably the difference between an amatur builder like me and a production setup like yours where the economies of scale become better. I believe the price of the ECU itself is within my budget but that the application program would be quite expensive for me where I am only going to use it on one engine. I won't mind provided that the standard ECU setup would work with the engine. I've sent a couple of emails to BSG although have had no response yet so will have to call them to discuss my requirements.

I'm not aware of any other ECU companies - is the Italian one FIAT by any chance? I would consider buying your in-house one if that was an option?

It would be really interesting to build an ECU myself although I am time restricted so not sure if this would be a great idea. I think that getting the map values right would be the hardest part. I imagine the whole thing would run off a PIC or possibly motorola like the megasquirt with some non-volatile memory. Do you know much about the signals that the injectors get? Voltage etc??

From looking at the BSG site it looks as though their ECU does not use an exhaust lambda probe - is this right? Does the setup work accurately across a range of conditions?

As far as my plans go I am aiming to tie the engine up to a harly 6-speed box with a chain primary drive in a custom fabricated frame. Have bought gearbox, primary, clutch and now engine (awaiting shipping) so far.

Neil

[TimppaX]

As engine developement issue I´d see getting lighter and higher RPM engines available.

Diesel engine as heavier and with lower RPM is perhaps the main reason why it´s mostly overlooked as modern motorbike powerplant

Nothing beats great torque diesel has but with cost of weight and low RPM.

Fuel economy and possible use of biobased fuels is main reason I ever got interested diesel bikes. At that time Diesel Enfields were here available by special order but too costy.

[taildraggin]

Eric,

I believe it is relevant to discuss the context of the design. When I began as a product manager, I thought I controlled 90% of the success of the product, and the sales dept. provided 10%. 9 startup companies later, I believe that the ratio is reversed.

PPO as an attribute may also require 'targeting'. The military probably doesn't care and I'm not sure that you can find bike-ready (processed) PPO in Africa.

You certainly have a good numbers for your product:

Engine: 800cc, inline triple, turbodiesel
Power: 54kW @ 3000r/min
Torque: 146Nm @ 1800-2800r/min
Transmission: CVT
Top speed: 185km/h
Fuel consumption: 2.13-litres per 100km
Price: 17.500€

Your bike seems to be 'ballsy and economical'. An image of 'Urban Cool', with a conscience.

Based on your experience, you're one of the few people on the planet that can answer where to improve from here. That's a polished product you have - is there a more advanced diesel bike?

From here, a purpose-built, a lighter, freer revving engine (T900) that uses the additional strength of the diesel engine as all or part of the frame structure (e.g. stressed member frame - Britten and many others) would be the goal. With the wider powerband that would come with the revs, a clutch/gearbox can return, providing additional performance. (Can a blown 2 stroke diesel return, perhaps requiring PPO to meet emissions?)

Since thousands of these T900 are going to be sold to young go-fasters, can you slash the cost of the T800 to 10.000€ and bring it to the US for guys like me satisfied with a 115mph/110mpg diesel that will last a lifetime?

Besto,
- Charlie

[Crazymanneil]

If anyone has any info on voltage levels, frequencies etc of the signals sent to the components on a Smart CDI engine i'd appreciate anything you can share. I'm looking into going down the route of building an ECU for this now. I reckon this would give me more flexibility and I can add features like a bluetooth connection for tweaking settings and its got to be worth a shot before shelling out for a prebuilt unit. (what am i letting myself in for!!)

Cheers,

Neil

[oilburner]

Here's an interesting 2 part primer on common rail systems. A Megasquirt looks like childs play compared with a CRDI setup.

http://autospeed.com/cms/A_108104/article.html (part 1)
http://autospeed.com/cms/A_108105/article.html (part 2)

FYI

Avery

[Crazymanneil]

Cheers for that Avery, some very useful info in there. It certainly is trickier than petrol injection systems although I am still looking at it. I think the hardest part would be working out the map that the thing should use - a fair bit of trial and error!

Engine is ordered now...

Neil

[Crazymanneil]

Hope I get this right - first time posting pics...





Bit fuzzy due to cameraphone. Came mostly complete bar the starter and alternator. Gotta work out that ecu now though I think primary drive and frame will be next...

Neil

[Darren]

Information that I'm getting suggests that unit injectors are more robust than common rail systems.

I also see much more information on the internet about Volkswagen engines. I think VAG-COM has helped give a good understanding of VW engines also forums such as www.tdiclub.com

I'm not sure of the pricing of the BSG ECU and software but maybe chip tuning would prove to be a cheaper option?

There are a number of chip tuning forums. If you do some reading you'll get a better understanding of how things work. If you post about your project on the forums you may get advice (the tuners will not see you as competition) to help you understand how the Smart ECU works.

You can download a free version of WinOLS, a tool for examining the data from the ECU.

Chip tuning forum (this one has links to others)

http://www.checksumm.com/chiptuning/gen ... index.html

WinOLS

http://www.evc.de/en/

I've got some info for another MB common rail engine with Bosch EDC - the 1.7 A class.

With this all injectors are constantly supplied 11 - 14 Volts and switches the earth to provide injection events.

There may be some more useful information at OBEDwiki

http://wiki.obed.org.uk/index.php?title=Main_Page

[Erik "EVA Products]

@Neil,
nice engine you got there. don't forget to put it in 45 degrees else your will get oilproblems
I am really interested how you will get this smart ECU system working. My advice would be not to use the original system . It uses so much info from different cars sensors not engine related. The BSG ECU might be a solid option . A little price for a prive person that is right. You need the ECU and wirering diagram. and for real drivability setup also the software. Can you give some info on what your plans are with the engine and frame. and what kind of a bike you want to build.

The german edimo project used this engine and spend 150000 euros on it to solve mainly the ecu problem. And they have a lot of knowledge. I know because i drove this bike on the University ground in Germany.


@Charlie,
and you have not seen all...............jet we did a test and got to a 220km/h testdrive at 3850 rpm .. and no vibrations whatsoever.

I can see your economy (US) having bUSh problems from my point of view and like EU prices to drop. The nice thing is that our biggest orders come form the US and there is no price discussion of any sort. Can you deliver and when is the question asked. For cars there are allways persons that only want a fiat 500 and some others drive mercedes to hummers. $$$$??
Do you drive a dieselpowered fiat 500 or a hummer ?

For the africa statement you make, i see you do not have the right figures.

And thats with my product the most done thing, assuming without knowledge on (fuels , smoke, noise, weight, etc etc). What i mean is that these assumptions and also yours are not correct info.

Why do you write on a needed wider powerband, that is also often mistaken. did you ever drive a modern truck. It powers of between 1000 and max 1800 rpm and when you jump gears you can hardly keep up with them...... (only driving the trailer truck)
I think that this misunderstanding is that rpm have to have a large rpm range to work . however torque is the main issue to my knowledge that gives power to a gearbox system.


regards

Erik
EVA Products

[Byrdman]

This is an interesting topic and an even better conversation.

Like Erik, I too want to see a modern diesel motorcycle. As much as I love the creativity that we've seen with the industrial engine powered homebuilts, they're not the type of motorcycle I want to ride.

So, my diesel bike build has taken a new direction. Instead of shoehorning an engine into a cruiser type chassis, I'm investigating a diesel sportbike concept.

My plan is to take a modern inline-4 sportbike engine, creatively shopping off the transmission,clutch, and drive assembly and grafting it onto modern high-speed diesel engine.

The diesel engine is where most of us fall short though. Low RPM, heavy industrial diesel engines are easily found but a high performance, lightweight diesel engine is a tall order, especially here in the United States.

I have a prototype three cylinder all-aluminum Yanmar that spins to 4500 RPM and makes 36 hp in a relatively mild sate of tune. I can adjust final drive sprocket ratios to make up for the lower rpm.

Here's the engine.......





And here's the bike..........




We'll see how it goes

[Sphere]

Erik, the engine type you mention for trucks has a matching gearbox. The DIY crowd here is stuck with 4,5-way trannies.

[Fiddler]

Sphere,

Why dont you speak to Erik about one of his used CVT units he's selling on?

[Erik "EVA Products]

@ Byrdman,

now we are talking...
I like it that some other views come up.
I wonder what the weight is of your engine ? Turbo/ intercooler ?
Make it happen. I think you can seeing the picures on your website.

@ Sphere,
yes why don't you talk to me or come over tomorrow around 10.00. I am only 5clicks from your location (Bloemenlaan 7a, 2235em, Valkenburg zh). You can drive the Track T-800CDI if you like . About the gearbox, is it not so you can not change only an engine in a motorcycle but allways have to put in a matching gearbox or drive system. regards

Erik

[Sphere]

I don't think I want to clobber a frame together. I require something that more or less fits in an existing frame. This is a combination of lacking skills as well as the stringent road authority check that comes with it.

Sphere,

Why dont you speak to Erik about one of his used CVT units he's selling on?

I can't swing by tomorrow, but somehow I had thought you would be far far away. If I can take a rain check, I will be happy to come check out your bike some time soon.

@ Sphere,
yes why don't you talk to me or come over tomorrow around 10.00. I am only 5clicks from your location (Bloemenlaan 7a, 2235em, Valkenburg zh). You can drive the Track T-800CDI if you like . About the gearbox, is it not so you can not change only an engine in a motorcycle but allways have to put in a matching gearbox or drive system. regards

Erik

[TimppaX]

a bit slow reaction, but:

What kind of CVTs available? Easy/hard to adjust? Price?

[Crazymanneil]

Good to see this topic is still alive and kicking, have missed a couple of posts so playing catchup now

> Darren
Thanks for the info. I'd be glad to get a hand on any injector electrical info I can so pointers appreciated.

I asked a couple of chip tuning companies but they are unable to help me with the standard Smart ECU. As Erik says, I don't think thats the road to go anymore and would probably end up using more time and money anyway.

You are definately right that there is more info for the VW engines, but the weight of them is what put me off the most. I can just about lift the engine I have now which I reckon means its 40 - 50kg or so and should work well in a bike. Time will tell if I live to regret the decision...

> Erik
I was considering converting the engine to dry sump so that 45 degrees would not matter and I could reduce the overall engine height. Having said that I may keep the original sump etc depending on how I decide to lay the whole lot out.

I am planning to use an Ultima transmission for my project. This is essentially a harley gearbox although this is 6 speed which should be useful. There is a nice calculator on the internet that I put the gear ratios into and this box should be just about right for the engine although another couple of teeth in the front primary sprocket would be useful.

This is similar to the EDIMO project although I will be using chain primary drive as I think it will be easier to setup and I was able to find a chain primary and clutch on ebay for a good price. So far I have the engine, gearbox and primary drive. Depending on layout I may have to fabricate a primary drive housing (which is oil tight) though I think this pain outweighs trying to align engine and transmission accurately enough for a belt drive. We will see...

ECU wise I am still considering making my own. I am thinking of a high speed PIC or Motorola cpu and whatever electronics are needed to cleanup the sensor signals and drive the injectors and rail pressure actuator. I write software for a living so can already imagine how the program would work although would need some dyno time to figure out the correct map probably. The big problem with this at the moment is trying to aquire electrical drive information for the -

- Common rail pressure actuator (far as I know it is 1khz squarewave with varied duty cycle, but what voltage??)
- Common Rail pressure sensor
- Injectors (believe these are high voltage peak and hold although would need current information and also injector flow map would be useful)
- MAP sensor (Could probably work this out with my compressor and a pressure guage but not sure what voltage it would be driven by and what pins)

I'm still looking for this info if anyone can help. So far I have some information but not all. I have a wiring diagram for the standard ECU though this does not give the above information obviously. I've also been looking at Bosch manuals although there are so many of them its hard to know which one if any would give the info.

Could be BSG solution would be a good way to go, but I don't think I can afford the application program as well as the ECU. Could be an option if some nice person could set the map on it for me???

Frame wise I will see once I have worked out engine and gearbox layout. I want a trailbike style of frame. I have a contact of a company here i Belfast that can fabricate a frame from scratch if necessary although a standard frame from another bike would save £££ and paperwork.

> Byrdman
Nice project you got there!


Neil

[Darren]

Hello Niel,

For the Mercedes 1.7 CDI 2001+

The fuel pressure control solenoid at tick over pulses 1.8V every millisecond

Fuel pressure sensor gets 5 Volts, ECU receives .5V key on and 1.25 at idle

MAP gets 5 volts, ECU receives 1.5 at idle 4.5 under load

Hope that helps.

Best

Darren

[oilburner]

Check out http://www.chiptuners.org. Lots of information on diesel chip tuning; listings of BMW common rail maps

[Crazymanneil]

Good info guys, thanks. The electrical info ties in with what I know so far. The chiptuners link looks promising - some more bedtime reading to do now

Neil