Oil Leak

[alexanderfoti]

Hi all

I have rebuilt my gearbox, but there seems to be an oil leak from the selector shaft, it leaked out of most of the gearbox oil in 150 miles

Any ideas what the issue is?

I think there may be something missing:

[gilburton]

referring to the villiers services exploded diagrams (parts list and diagram 9E4) have you fitted parts 71 (E8776)sealing ring gear operating spindle and part 72 (E4150) washer sealing ring retaining ??
That's all I can see that does the sealing if it helps?
I'm not sure which side of the outer case they fit but at a guess looking at your pic I would say there should be something to stop the clip wearing away the case.
Perhaps you have fitted them both on the inside?
Again looking at your pic there seems to be a chamfer on the case behind the clip. If part 71 is just an "O" ring then that would suggest to me that the "O" ring goes outside the case followed by part 72 which compresses the seal and it's all held on by the clip.
Only guessing but maybe villiers services can help?

[gilburton]

Just done a bit more research and I was correct. There should be an "o" ring followed by the shim/washer then the clip ALL on the OUTSIDE of the case. Villiers services have got these items for 50p each although a standard "O" ring should be ok if you still have the shim/washer. I know Halfords do a small packet of "O" rings and you can buy boxed sets from ebay etc.
If you don't have the shim just order the items from villiers services and I'm confident your oil leaks will be over

[alexanderfoti]

Indeed I see what you mean.


When I rebuild the gearbox I put a O ring in the casing, but im not sure if number 71 refers to the oring in the case, or an additional oring that should go on the shaft?

Indeed it seems you are correct, and that I am missing the shing (72). I have ordered a replacement shim from villiers services.

So to confirm, I should remove the clip, place another o=ring on the shaft, place the shim (72) then replace the clip?

Thanks for your help.

[gilburton]

When you get the shim/O ring make sure the shaft comes out far enough to get the shim/O ring behind the clip. If it doesn't this would suggest(possibly) that you might have put something (the missing shim/seal???)on the inside which should be outside??
Don't force anything.I don't know how thick the shim is so until you get it you won't know either.
You say that you have put an O ring in the casing but I don't see any reference to another O ring on the shaft???
I would order a new O ring as well and see if it fits over the shaft behind the shim and clip without stretching it too far and sits in the chamfer. If anything it should be snug without being loose then the shim and clip when fitted should compress it slightly..
For 50p extra it's worth it.
If you look at the description for the O ring on the villiers services spares page under seals it SUGGESTS that you refer to the shim and clip part numbers that hold the O ring IN!!
I'm sure if you ask they will tell you where it all goes

[alexanderfoti]

Indeed, on my case there is a cutout in the whole that the shaft goes through for an o-ring (Which I renewed and isnt shown on the diagram, also the ratcheting mechanism 81 is not on mine (nor is the spring 69).

I dont think that the shim is on the inside, as my gear selector mechanism is slightly different to the diagram, there is a circlip that holds it in place rather than a bolt and it goes in an out as one unit, if I had the shim on the wrong side it wouldnt mesh properly.

I have bought the shim, a new oring and a clip. I think its meant to go on the shaft on top of the casing and then the shim compresses it, as you said. If you look closely at my picture, you can see that there is a groove in the shaft, possibly for the missing o-ring.

I have sent them a picture and requested if it looks like there is anything missing. Let see what they say.

Thanks very much

[gilburton]

Ah I did see a reference to a modified shaft but no pics.
If you mean the groove between the clip and the splines that is just machining.
If you look behind the clip you can see the chamfer in the case which I believe is where the O ring goes then the washer/shim on top followed by the clip.
My diesel engine has a chamfer on the oil filter cover plate and works in a similar fashion as the O ring is compressed into the chamfer and around the filter or shaft in your case.
The only thing worrying me is the clip looks very close to the case? Does it pull out a bit? You'll need a few thou or mm gap to fit the O ring and shim. This is the reason I asked about the shim/washer possibly being on the wrong side.
All in all you'll be an expert on the villiers gearbox when it's sorted

[alexanderfoti]

Yeah, the Black ring directly behind the clip is where the current oring is as well, lets see what size the ring that villiers services send me. hopefully it will fit.

There is a little bit of movement, but not a huge amount, depending on how big the shim is and how big the o-ring is, then I should be able to get the shim and o-ring to fit in front

Indeed, ITs been rebuilt by me, and if I can stop it leaking I will know the box backwards

[gilburton]

Is this yours scroll down a bit to see post 62 selector. http://www.villiers.info.htm
you can clearly see the clip/washer/seal

[alexanderfoti]

The link doesnt work

[alexanderfoti]

If you are referring to this then yeah I see what you mean! looks like there are probably 2 seals, one on the outside and one in the casting, or that the shim is designed to keep the one in the casting in place to prevent leaks!

[gilburton]

That's the one,I'm having computer problems with links
I'm a bit confused you say there is an O ring seal already behind the clip?? I can't really see in your pic.
If that is correct and it it is new all you will need then is the washer/shim to compress it a bit and hold it in place.
Have you got a clear pic of the shaft before you fitted it and the groove where you fitted the seal??
When you mentioned 2 seals I assumed there was a groove somewhere else?
I'm talking about the angled chamfer behind the clip in the case not a groove.
If you are using the old O ring then the new one should sort it.

[alexanderfoti]

It does pull out a bit, but not hugely!.

Unfortunately I dont have a pic of before, I only have pictures with the selector in the gearbox casing.

To be honest I could remove the cover again if it still leaks after fitting the shim, but I dont fancy doing that as the clutch took forever to get adjusted correctly.

[gilburton]

We're crossing over with posts I've amended my last one if it helps.

[gilburton]

did you get the first O ring from villiers services?? If not it may be too thin and the correct one will be better.

[alexanderfoti]

Ah yes i see.

Indeed, there is definitely an o ring seal behind the circlip. It wasnt from villiers so indeed it may be too thin, Hopefully the leak is just caused by the missing shim and that should resolve it. They havent responded to my email yet

[alexanderfoti]

Villiers services, confirmed I was missing a shim.

I have received and fitted it, but have not been able to get the clip into the groove, as the shaft doesn't come out enough. I have a feeling its not going to work like this. I also compared the o-rings with the one inside the box, exactly the same.

Thoughts?

[alexanderfoti]

NVM villiers say this is how its meant to be!

[gilburton]

It would appear you have fitted the original seal inside?? That is why there is only one seal on the diagrams.There shouldn't be a seal inside. Is the missing washer in there as well??
When you get it apart(again ) trial fit it with the new seal and shim on the outside and see if you can get the clip on before you put the case back together.

[alexanderfoti]

There is only one seal fitted, in the order shown on the diagrams. It just needs to be fitted in the case before putting the gearbox shaft through, as the grooves stops the seal from coming out.

[gilburton]

Well something is stopping the shaft?? If you have the case off double check there are no extra washers or seals on the shaft.
According to the diagram there is nothing like that on the shaft inside the case..
The only other thing to try is pushing the selector from the back to compress the O ring a little bit but no excessive force.
This means the case will have to be fitted with the selector in place??
If after all this it still doesn't work I would suggest getting a book on the villiers. There are usually a few on ebay or from villiers specialists.
I can't find anything to download
Sudden thought have you tried fitting the gear lever and using that to pull on??

[alexanderfoti]

Already had a go at pulling on it using the gear lever. From memory there isnt an oring on the inside of the selector, just the one you can see behind the clip in the first pic. Also the selector mechanism is attached to the inside of the case.

I already have a villiers service book, but it skims past the seals part of the gearbox, only talking about uprated internals etc

[gilburton]

Well if pulling it hasn't helped you will have no other option but to take the case off and push the shaft out to check.
There have been a few articles in older magazines such as motorcycle mechanics and(I think) october 2011 classic bike guide.
You can get the back issues of CBG sent or get a download.
I'll keep looking

[alexanderfoti]

No problem. not to worry, I will keep an eye on the oil situation with the shim in place, and will let you know the outcome! A brief 5 mile test ride showed no leakage. We will see on a longer journey what its like.

[gilburton]

Don't forget the clip will move if it isn't in the groove but I would urge you to take the case off again before you go too far as you may cause damage and undo all the work/money you have put in already.
When you do take some pics.

[alexanderfoti]

BAH still leaks! I will have to take it apart at some point soon then, grr! Will let you know what happens, and take lots of pics

[Nanko]

An easy way to check for oil leaks after assembly is pressurize the box (or whatever) with abt 0,5 Bar and check for leaks with soapwater.
Very large leaks will be not detected because the liquid is blown away.
I use an old stethoscope to detect these big holes

[alexanderfoti]

Right, I am now leaking from the sprocket side, which had a new hardended spacer and a new seal, grrrrr this is driving me mental, I cant ride the bike anywhere because it pisses out oil on its arrival!

[gilburton]

Did you renew the bearing(s)?? If they are worn they will move enough to break the seal.

[alexanderfoti]

Yup, new bearings as well and new high gear pinion.

I had the primary chain off today and checked and there is no play in the shaft so bearings seem ok still. I really dont want to take the clutch etc off again to check the seal behind the sprocket.