Diahatsu Engine to Harley Tranny questions

[Curtis in Texas]

Diesel Elefant Project in the planning stages. Major parts have been bought!

I can’t find a definitive answer on this anywhere. I must have read every thread and build on this Forum and still come up short.

Heres' where I am at this point now!
I bought CoachGeo's 6 speed transmission last year for my diesel project.
I already have a Daihatsu 3 cyl 850cc NA diesel engine out of a Toro Lawnmower. It is still in the mower and runs real good and will stay there until I can figure out these questions. I still start it every month and get it nice and warm to make sure the battery is still charged up. So I'm good there. The Mower is a hydraulic drive system, so I'm not sure how big the flywheel is or if there is one.

Oh, and I have aquired a 1000 cc 3 cyl Honda Diesel engine in my shop too for the next project ater this one. Thinking Gold Wing conversion. When it rains it pours! I should point out that back in the 80's I raced "C" sport race cars with Honda engines mated to Porchee gearboxes. I designed and built the mating plates and flywheels, so I can do this once I know the best way to go about it.

I have a combo lathe & mill, migs and all that machine shop tooling required to tackle this project, so making or modifying parts is not that big of a deal, only I am a Metric Motorcycle Guy and don't know squat about Harleys.

My plan is to put this engine tranny combo in my Ducati Elefant and sell off the Desmo. Unless I can talk CoachGeo out of one of his Triumphs too!
But I'm not going to strip my Bike and Mower apart until I can get th engine tranny to mate in an engine cradle. And just so you know, bending tubing and welding are no big deal for me and my shop.

My questions!
How do you attach the primary sprocket to the back of your engine? (Flywheel side) I've seen a cone looking thing on one build here, but not sure if it was for what I think it was for.
Are you using a Harley starter on the transmission or the one on Diesel engine at the flywheel/ flex plate?
And lastly, is a primary case easier or harder to use in this application?
I would like to run chains rather than belts, but if the build is easier witout the oil bath chain system I'll go that way.
I'm thinking chains to keep the width of the bike down.

What else do I need to know that didn't ask?



I've seen DeathMachineFabs Hardtail Chopper and I've ask him these questions over on the Pirate Board.
I ask here too, hoping someone here can answer in case he doesn't.
Would love to build one like Heikos Triumphs fur use here in the USA.

Any help you can give or point me in the right direction will help.
I think I've searched every Harley Forum I can find, and still don't know the answer. I've learned a lot of the terminology for a lot of it but still not sure what's behind the compensator sprocket. And how best to mate it to the Diahatsu Engine to drive the Ultima 6 speed.

In fact the wife thinks I've been goofing off too much on the computer because if my research. She thinks I should be out in the shop making money. Silly Woman!

I've got a few other cool bike projects I am about to finish up here in a few months and now it's time to get the details down and the little major pieces made for my Diesel Bike Project.

Thanks Guys!
Help!

Curtis

[coachgeo]

You've probably seen it... but just in case here is Heiko's harley diesel. He and every other project I can recall that used the Ultima tranny w/ a diesel used a belt drive to mate the engine to the tranny. Chain drive from ultima to rear wheel, To deal with the Ulitma's plate/mounting bracket that bolts up to harley motor and set to OEM fit harley starter... think they either took it off and refabricated new or modified Ultima's to use the diesels engines own OEM starter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5IkGMMKSFQ

[coachgeo]

Now that I think about it... isn't Heiko not even attaching the Ultima to the engine. Think it's mounted to the frame allowing it to not interfer with the OEM starter that belongs to the engine

[Curtis in Texas]

Now that I think about it... isn't Heiko not even attaching the Ultima to the engine. Think it's mounted to the frame allowing it to not interfer with the OEM starter that belongs to the engine

I could have sworn he cut the starter mount off the Ultima.
It's the primary sprocket mounted to the engine that I'm still not sure of.

Like I've said, I've searched and studied pictures on evey thing I can find about it and still nothing definite.
I have quite a collection of pictures of others builds.

I am thinking he must have bolted the engine and transmission to tha cradle bracket, but he has a primary cover over it so it's hard to tell for sure.

[coachgeo]

...It's the primary sprocket mounted to the engine that I'm still not sure of.....

ahhhhh... Im most assuridly missunderstanding something in terminology or something when I say this... but.... there is no primary sprocket on the engine.... He uses a 3" belt drive on all 3cyl diesel setups but his CVT versions

[Curtis in Texas]

I should have asked sooner than I did.
Because as usual the answer was staring me in the face.
I finally found some pictures of that tell me what I need to design to make this work.

I’m really not a big fan of belts and pulleys because o the width involved, but it does look a lot simpler and cheaper.

This pulley is for a 1” Punsan shaft. Here’ you can see the adapter he made.



And I had this one buried in my research albums for a flywheel.


My only question is are you guys who are running the belts using a splined shaft for your pulley or just using the bolts to hold it on make it all go round?

I’m thinking if I can find an old Harley crankshaft I can get the drive side shaft off it and weld it into a custom flywheel flange plate. Maybe put some drive pins in the flywheel drive to take the sheer loading off the flywheel bolts.
Anybody try that? Any suggestions and pictures would be great.

Any suggestion on how to make it all work with sprockets and chain?

Again, I’m trying to keep it narrow.

Curtis

[coachgeo]

...I’m thinking if I can find an old Harley crankshaft I can get the drive side shaft off it and weld it into a custom flywheel flange plate....Curtis

That's what was recommended to me by locomotivebreath though he had not actually done it.

Suprised you find nothing on Harley sites in RE to using a chain instead of belt. I like narrower too. See my nutty idea of keeping it narrow with a CVT in the CVT section here. It too would start with a chain. According to Heiko CVT's stick out more than the 3" belt drive. Though not a bunch more.

PS- Still have the 3" belt drive for sell

[Curtis in Texas]

I did a little digging on the Computer, rather than mowing the yard and found this.
http://www.cas4.com/engine/engine-flywheels2.html
Look about a third of the way down and you'll see the engine shafts.
This is a good start, but being that I don't know Harleys I'm not sure which one to buy and what sprocket pulley goes with it.
Gonna need a Harley Smart Guy I guess!
My Harley riding friend has this puzzled look on his face when I asked him abount his compensator sprocket.
He had no clue what I was talking abount so I'm certain I'm way over his head if it's any deeper than the gas cap removal.
I think he has the Dealership change his oil for him.

Anyone have a suggestion for where to go from here?

I can turn my own hub for the flywheel, and weld in this shaft to it, so I'm figuring out some of it.

Ya'll are sure a quite bunch this weekend!

[balboa_71]

Curtis,
Not sure where you are with the project, but it does sound like fun. I've been making a few trips to the Kubota industrial engine shop here lately, and from what I see, they bring in engines and mount stub shaft adapters to the flywheels when outfitting these engines for oilfield work. To me, that is the simplest solution to your situation. You buy a stub shaft to adapt to your engines flywheel, the shaft will have a key way and not be splined, then you slide a tooth belt sprocket on the shaft with key and lock it down. On your tranny, you have a clutch with tooth sprocket to drive the input shaft. You can build an adapter plate to hold the tranny to engine so both shafts are parallel, and if need be, slot some of the bolt holes so you can adjust tension on the belt. Since I don't know much about Harleys, I can't comment on transmission mounted starters, but it seems the best approach is to use the starter that came with you engine and have it work the flywheel ring gear. I like belts....they are clean, seldom wear out if spec'd right to match the engines horsepower and torque. Primary chains need oil and turn fast, you have to enclose them...they suck. I years past, the only negative comments I've read about using timing/toothed belts on diesel engines were in regards to single cylinder engines because of the power pulses tearing up the belts, but that was when people tried to use them on Enfield setups, not torque converters. A multicylinder diesel will work very well with a belt primary drive. Secondary drives is another subject due to torque multiplication from the gear box. I'd stick with a chain for secondary drive unless you sort out some known to work parts with your diesel set up. Last, I don't know about building up a stub drive for your engine. Personally, I don't like welded drive components due to the intense vibration and torque your engine will output, but that's all subjective. I'll bet most stub shafts are machined from forgings in order to get the grain structure running properly through the material.

Cris

[Curtis in Texas]

Excellent idea Cris,
I did a little research and found this.
http://www.m-and-d.com/pdfs/briggs/58A4 ... 3-1203.pdf

Can't post the specific page information but scroll down to page 10 and look at part # 1047-825123
It's a 1" stub shaft that bolts to the back of the flywheel.

Now we're cooking. That will be so much easier than making the part.
It will mean I can count on it lasting.
I may go to a larger diameter stub so I can bolt the pulley directly onto the stub shaft.

Man, I'm glad I asked, because all I need is a little push in the right direction with the right terminology and I'm going good.

I found a transmission plate already cut, drilled and slotted for these transmissions for only $18 a copy so I'm going to order a few things tomorrow. I started the little diesel today and it fired right up. It runs smooth and revs easy. According to the paperwork I got with the Mower it's a 51.9 cu, 850 cc 3 cyl and puts out 18.5 hp or 14KW at 2950 rpm. The engine only has 261 hours on it.
Should do me well enough, but I do have these little turbo’s in the shelf for later.

A few things left to figure out like the clutch operation without a primary cover and such.
Plus there's the stub shaft to pulley part I've got to work out once I get them.

My plans are to build a cradle that will fit the engine and transmission together and can be installed on the bike frame of my choice.
The Ducati has a removable cradle under its engine so I may just make a copy and put the diesel and transmission together on the copy. This way I can work out the primary drives, clutch, and electrical before I strip the bikes engine out.

What have I not thought about Guys?

Gotta be something I'm overlooking!

S far nothing from the other side of the Pond! Odd, today was an American Holiday for us.
Ya'll working or Pubing?

CD

[balboa_71]

Curtis,
Looks like the stub shaft is available in several different diameters, if you can get your pulley first, that might be an advantage. If there is no shaft to fit the ID of the pulley, you can have the shaft turned to fit the pulley with a few thou of clearance. What model Ducati are you putting the engine in?

Cris

[coachgeo]

Look at the bellhousings too curtis. Ask about common ones so you can seach for a used one too. The bellhousing might be something you can make a cover out of. Cut out a slot for chain/belt and then make up a blank cover to bolt to it. Course that is alot of weight just to make a cover but then again... laying the bike down wont break it either.

[Curtis in Texas]

Coach as it stands now I will make a bell housing cover for it out of sheet metal and steel.
That I can do easy enough! Used to make my own race car bell housings back in the 70's and 80's.
I was able to talk a machinist friend of mine into helping me sort out some the actual machine work for this project.
Still not sure what parts I need to make and whick ones I can buy off the shelf, so that's why I'm here!

My Bud WAS an old Harley rider /builder so I think I can count on his help. Besides he's setting at home with a broken leg (motorcycle accident) so he has nothing else to do except watch a bunch of computer porn.

I did find a stub shaft for the back of the littel diesel. $147 bucks.
Now all I need is the front pully, in the right ratio, and I'll have something to work with.
I will be using a small belt for the prmary drive, and a chain final. Unless I can find a belt the right length.
This project is shaping up, but I still don't have all the answers and would rather not reinvent the wheel when there are others who have traveled this path. I would be most appreciative if ony of them chime in here to help me mudde through this project.

I appreciate all the help so far.
Balvoa71, Coach Y'alls help has helped me make big leaps in the planning stages of this build.
As soon as I finish the two project bikes I'm working on now I'll jump on this one with both feet. Sadly they are both gas engine conversions.

I've got a good running engine, new Ultima 6 speed transmission, an old bike and enough tools to make this happen.
Time and knowledge are my only shortcomings so far!


One other question! Anybody have tips on how to get this Web Site to EMail me when someone comments?
I have it enabled on my profile but it's not working! So If I don't jump on line when someone posts up it's because I didn't see it.
I check in here once a day!

My EMail is CurtisDrew@AOL.com Should anyone want to pass along info or get alhold of me quickly.

And yes I am a Texan in the purist form. Guns, Horses, Stetson Hats, Full Quill Ostrich Skin Boots and BBQ.
And yes, I met my Sicillian Yankee wife boot scootin on a sawdust floor! Black Stetson and all. Yee Haw!
Hope that doesn't offend anyone.
My friends call me Curtis Drew or CD. Kinda like Billy Bob, Tommy Joe or MH.

Here's a picture of me at my Parents Ranch In my Younger days, I was singing my Fathers favorite Country tunes on his Birthday.

Bob Wills, Ernest Tubbs, and Buck Owens!!!!

[coachgeo]

...I will be using a small belt for the prmary drive, and a chain final. Unless I can find a belt the right length...

So not to repeat others mistakes..... Heiko did tell me he had also started with smaller belts but found them to slip too easly with so much torqe available from 3cyl diesels. Not an issue with the 3" belts. With that in mind...... review my thread in CVT info. about conserving width of the bike w/cvt. Same idea could work for Belt drive. Tucks the width of the pully's under the tank/seat if there is room.

...One other question! Anybody have tips on how to get this Web Site to EMail me when someone comments?
I have it enabled on my profile but it's not working! So If I don't jump on line when someone posts up it's because I didn't see it...

After you put your text into your post's text box, scroll down to the [Options] menu tab. In there is a spot you can select Notify me when a reply is posted. This will send you an email notification if you get a responce.

BTW, not aimed at you specific, but for general education of our forum users- selecting the neighboring tab next to[Options] which is [Upload attachment] opens another set of menus that leads you to tools for attaching images etc. It's better to attach images then to link or link to show using the [IMG ] tool. Such linked images have a tendency to dissapear over time making the archive of pic..ed threads pretty useless.

[Curtis in Texas]

Interesting. I would have never thought that an 18 HP diesel would have too much torque for a Harley Davidson Primary drive belt!
I appreciate the heds up.

I am subscribed to this Thread. I have been on all my post since I joined and I've checked this one and even verified my E Mail is correct.
It just doesn't send me the message of a reply to my thread.
Oh well, I'll just check in here every so often.

Good advice I learned a long time ago. Other than URLs to others Web sites, I have gotten in the habit of storing the images I want to use in my personal phot storage for posting later. This way if the Ownercloses his Photo Service or it craashes, I can still reference them in my post. I have an extensive folder of others projects so I can study them in one place without having to backtrack and bother the Origanal Poster for his images again.

And just so you you know I have the notify box checked in the options tab below. Don't expect it to work for me this time either.

[coachgeo]

... have gotten in the habit of storing the images I want to use in my personal phot storage for posting later. This way if the Owner closes his Photo Service or it craashes, I can still reference them in my post....

while sounds good in practice.... there is nothing to keep your photo service from crashing, going out of biz (they tend to go out of biz every 5 to 7 years) or.... not to be morbid but have seen HUGE set of pic and other data die with a fellow when he went unexpectedly. Nearly twenty years of the best collection of Unimog info and pics on the planet and no one could access it after her got into his Mog and heading out for an eternal grand adventure.

[Curtis in Texas]

Well, I guess I'll figure it out someday.

[coachgeo]

Keep us posted. Wish I could be of more assistance. A good number of the guys from here on the other side of the ocean are at The Big Knock and have been grinding away getting ready for a month or so. That might have something to do with slower participation here?

If there is a free weekend would love to get together and get my bikes over to your place. I've been so broke just didn't seem right to take them over there where they might be in your way till I get some cash. That and no way to get them to your place either unless you bring your truck & trailer. Remote chance a friend will be repaying me in the next couple months nearly two grand owed me so there is light at the end of the tunnel. Maybe I can trade you my 3" belt drive and clutch plates??

Notifications: W/your computer background (not typical) then odds are you've checked that notifications are not going to your junk mail, or that your email is mistyped in your control panel hmmmmmm. Know little about phpbb, probably not enough and I got no admin. privledges. I'll try to rouste an admin to check it out for ya.

[balboa_71]

Curtis and Coachgeo,
I'd like to get together with you all and see your bikes. I'll have mine up and running with the new engine here in a week or two, so I could ride it up north for a visit. I'd like to see what a bigger set up looks like...water cooled multi cylinder and real tranny w/clutch and all so I can plan for my next build. If you all have any interest, PM me and I'll return my phone number and add'y.

Thanks,
Cris

PS: There are only 3 of us in this part of country that I know of...there is a guy down between Austin and San Antonio, but I'm not sure if he's still into diesel biking....

[coachgeo]

Curtis and Coachgeo,
I'd like to get together with you all and see your bikes. ...

Replied in PM so not to highjack this thread