Conversions from the 50s

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zarquon
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Conversions from the 50s

Post by zarquon »

Hello all,

while doing some research, for the dieselmotorcycle book I am currently working on, I reviewed much of the material I collected in the last 15 years.
I took a closer look on the lost dieselbikes of the early days.
First was the Dopper Diesel from 1904, where components of an old bicycle met a 2hp Brons diesel. This is of course only of historic interest.
After this first try we had to do a time warp of 50 years.

In the 1950s three dieselmotorcycles where build. All in england!

Best documented is the Diesel Norton of Arthur Freeman Sanders. He took a 500cc Norton ES 2 and converted the engine for diesel use. Bottom end is stock, top end is converted for a injection system. Parts was taken from a Ferguson tractor, that has very similar bore and stroke, Mr Sanders found.
It was said the Diesel-Norton had a power output of 18hp. This is still exciting, because a 500cc diesel of our days, the 15LD 500 from Lombardini/Ruggerini has only 12hp.
The bike was featured with articles in english and german magazines.
Nobody knows what happend to the bike. Look for its number plate TAF 282 and arrest the driver. :-)

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Then we have the Sidney Diesel of Mr. Arthur Alexander Sidney. Stuart had a letter from his son who rode the bike and told us some details. Mr. Sidney developed a new small diesel engine and fitted it in a Norton motorcycle for demonstration purposes. The engine had a big external flywheel which was a bit tricky - others would say dangerous. The Engine had 500cc and gave 14hp. Case was made out of aluminium. To compensate the loss in strengh of the case steel rods were used that lead from the main bearings to the cylinder head. Four demonstration engines were made and nobody knows what happened zu them of the motorcycle. This one had the number plate CHH 312. If you came suprisingly across please arrest the driver. :)

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Third in row was Mr. Gordon Glover. He had chosen an Ariel as basis. It looks like a 350 NH build around 1950. He reduced the bore that the engine had only 300cc in the end. The rest of his work is similar to the work of Mr. Sanders. He left the bottom end mainly untouched and converted the upper end for usage of diesel fuel.
This bike was featured only in one article in the british „MotorCycling“ magazine in 1959.
You guessed it. Nobody knows what happened to the bike. Its number plate says KOD 711. You know what to do, if you get in touch with it.

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Questions, questions ...
Why did all this happened in england? We had heard nothing similar from anywhere else in the world.
What about this guys, building diesel motorcylces in the 50s? Arthur Freeman Sanders was an engineer and worked for renowned manufacturers like Fowler or Lister. you can find his name in literature mainly about old tractors. Arthur Alexander Sidney was - Arthur Alexander Sidney. I could not find anything about him. Same with Gordon Glover. He was remarkable young when doing his conversion. Only 24 years old. Stu tried to locate the bike, but could only bring in experience that the bike was registered to the same person a very long time.


Now there is something for dessert
The Perugina 175 Diesel. Not much is known about this bike. I received an email from the owner and he said the bike is still running, has done 20000km and does 100km/h flat out. And we have these pictures showing a beautifully adapted pump.
Motorcycles from Perugina are very rare, even als original petrol ones. But I could find some images to compare the bike. This is a Perugina 175, and is has some very clear modifications to the engine. But that leaves in the dark how a 175cc diesel could produce around 10hp that are needed to reach 100km/h

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Re: Conversions from the 50s

Post by Sphere »

Maybe the answer to the power enigma is twostroke?
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Re: Conversions from the 50s

Post by sbrumby »

can`t be 2 stroke exhaust in head not barrel.
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Re: Conversions from the 50s

Post by Stuart »

How about this for a find? Found it on the net today. The original patent for the engine used in the Sidney Norton diesel motorcycle :D It shows just what made the engine on this bike just a little bit different from all other diesel vehicles on the road at the time. It had a variable ante-chamber capable of being adjusted to varying not only compression but also the angle of injection. Cool huh? 8)

http://www.dieselbike.net/patents/GB810288A.pdf
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Re: Conversions from the 50s

Post by John »

Perhaps the high output compared with modern diesels, which are almost exclusively direct injection, - was indirect injection? The ante chamber gives the fuel more time to fully combust, allowing higher usable rev ceilings. Direct injection in cars is a relatively new thing, because until superior multi sequence metering in the injectors became available, it was very difficult to fine tune the injection spray accurately enough to stabilise the burn in direct injection cylinders of under 500cc per pot, & avoid the much sharper combustion crackle. Not that important in industrial diesels I suppose, but very important in transport!
My old 1360cc indirect injection Citroen AX diesel made 53 bhp @ 5000 rpm. Downsized to 500cc, that would be equivalent to 19.5 bhp in a 500. Reduce the output because of the less steady fluctuating torque wave of a single compared to a four, & 18 bhp might be feasable, though perhaps unlikely in practice. Certainly it would only have been attainable above 5000 revs.
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Re: Conversions from the 50s

Post by John »

The Perugina 175 could only have been a model name. No 175cc capacity diesel could possibly make the 10 hp necessary for a 60 mph + top speed. The 191cc Sachs two stroke in the Messerschmitt bubble car only developed 9.7 bhp. Very nice looking conversion though. Our industrial lumps, while they get the job done, leave a lot to be desired in the looks department! :lol:
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Re: Conversions from the 50s

Post by BoxerOtto »

yes john it absolutly would seem the indirect injection could create more complete combustion therefore also creating more power and efficiency. but one could also credit camshaft profiles to allow more efficent pumping of air volume combined on what looks like a four valve head on gorden glovers bike.see dual exhaust. also the smaller cc size of the engine may allow higher rpm's even though it is diesel because the surface area of the piston top is less therefore the burn completes sooner. we really don't know if they had any variable injection pump timing either. all together this could be areas where we lose out on the performance values claimed here.
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Re: Conversions from the 50s

Post by thundercougarfalconbird »

i know this is a little off the topic of motorcycles, but it is very interesting and is in the right time frame, a diesel powered chainsaw 50cc that can produce 3hp, that works out to .06 hp per cc, so the 175 cc bike ening could produce 10.5 hp.
yes the saw is a 2 cycle and who know the rpm range.

the article is interesting and worth a read

http://www.acresinternet.com/cscc.nsf/6 ... enDocument
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Re: Conversions from the 50s

Post by Sphere »

Haha, tonnes of smoke. Good luck getting it EPA certified :lol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXR3ZOPlRys

Edit: in summer it's a bit better http://s229.photobucket.com/albums/ee16 ... MG3395.mp4
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Re: Conversions from the 50s

Post by andrewaust »

Awesome - two stroke chainsaw, imagine the economy, like I said in a previous post, how good would it be to place a twin cylinder two stroke engine of 500 - 600cc in a bike. I guess it would be near impossible to pass emission laws these days, but then again who knows.


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Re: Conversions from the 50s

Post by Stuart »

Tracked down a cousin of Gordon Glover today and he told me Gordon passed on in 2000. He kept his interest in engineering up until the end though having a big interest in steam as well.
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Re: Conversions from the 50s

Post by andrewaust »

Thank you for the information regarding Gordon Glovar Stuart, sounds like he was a remarkable gentleman with out of the box concepts regarding his engineering capabilities.

Make you wonder just how many Patents are out there regarding the internal combustion engine, and how many have never been looked at seriously.


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Re: Conversions from the 50s

Post by Stuart »

Found a bit more on the Freeman Sanders Norton in Motorcycle Sport magazine Volume 7 Number 8 August 1966.
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1364924958.352578.jpg
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1364925074.834254.jpg
Hope it's readable!
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Re: Conversions from the 50s

Post by Stuart »

Maybe these are more readable...
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1364925315.668400.jpg
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1364925333.768336.jpg
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1364925354.468979.jpg
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Re: Conversions from the 50s

Post by Blunt Eversmoke »

Sphere wrote:Haha, tonnes of smoke. Good luck getting it EPA certified :lol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXR3ZOPlRys

Edit: in summer it's a bit better http://s229.photobucket.com/albums/ee16 ... MG3395.mp4
Here, someone sez in this vid they run the saw on gasoline with 30% two-stroke oil added because of bad diesel quality in Sweden. That explains the smoke.
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Re: Conversions from the 50s

Post by Blunt Eversmoke »

thundercougarfalconbird wrote:i know this is a little off the topic of motorcycles, but it is very interesting and is in the right time frame, a diesel powered chainsaw 50cc that can produce 3hp, that works out to .06 hp per cc, so the 175 cc bike ening could produce 10.5 hp.
yes the saw is a 2 cycle and who know the rpm range.

the article is interesting and worth a read

http://www.acresinternet.com/cscc.nsf/6 ... enDocument
What lil' info one can find on the net suggests it is not a true diesel. It is completely unclear whether it injects the fuel into the compressed air or scavenges with carbureted charge. It seems to me it is the latter. Other data: CR 11:1, glowpipe in the head, propane heated for cold starting. Would be nice to know the fuel per power-hour figures, but I guess you cannot know that until testing one oneself (dream on, I know).
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