Power Problem with your Enfield? If so try this

[andrewaust]

Everything was OK until I went out the other week and found a marked power loss with the bike - I've even posted comment elsewhere on the forum, but not a new topic!

Here I was rattling my brains looking at everything down to fuel, valve clearances etc, also thinking back to what I had changed or added to.

Then it hit me! No way - it couldn't be adding oil to the gearbox grease surely? So I have dumped the greasy oily mess out of the box to find it had churned itself into a thick goo

I let it drain overnight as it came out in blobs, and then topped it up with a good quality motor oil and test rode the bike.

Either it's just me, or it's true fact! Thick oil = GOO takes some of the H.P away from the engine resulting in poor pulling power up hills, into wind etc. It's still no race machine, but from the speedo it has helped.

Now as far as I know - filling the gearbox with motor oil is OK, but like always I have to say it's up to the owners accountability if you wish to try it.

Best of all, I cannot see any oil leakage - "YET"

My explanation is, the grease tends to fling off the gears/components, with most of it settling away from moving parts - then when oil is added, it dilutes down to a thick goo that churns up around the components robbing H.P from the engine etc.

Thought I'd post this one up for those experiencing the same type of problems.



Cheers


Andrew

[TimppaX]

To me it sounds like You´ve got water in gearbox. Water/gearoil mixture is goo. And driving with it in the gearbox is like having heavy load + wind + uphill at the same time. = no needed lubrication in the box.

[andrewaust]

Thank you for the post. The stuff I pulled out of the gearbox didn't contain any water/moisture. I done all the work to the gearbox a year ago when I put the extended shaft etc in for the conversion. It was a toss up to either go the grease or use oil straight up. Now I wish I'd just gone the oil.

But your spot on, if water gets into the box you'll get a Grey/white goo that will look rather nasty and it'll eventually ruin your box.

The Enfield service manual says to top up the gearbox with oil to obtain the correct level in the box. I guess with the petrol engines you wouldn't notice a power loss as you wouldn't be using the maximum H.P all the time. The diesels are a little different where you'll give it everything its got to obtain highway speeds.



Cheers


Andrew

[oldbmw]

I am not absolutely sure, but my belief is the old UK made gearboxes had oil. the Indian ones grease because the higher temps liquified it. the five peed box to be oil. Is this correct?

[Diesel Dave]

Enfield 4 speeders - loose 25% of a 500cc petrol's HP when grease filled.

UK boxes were oil filled.

5 speeders use EP80.

You can run oil in the 4 speeders - just expect to loose a little over time as it leaks out through the shaft interface and pushrod tunnel - keeps the chain lubed though. Be careful about the type of oil you use and the types of bushes fitted, the std cast iron ones are fine with any oil but the aftermarket phosphor bronze ones need expensive Chatsworth type as the additives in std oils attack the bronze.

Interesting story from the factory n the 90's.

All completed gearboxes would be tested on a bench and tested under load 4 at a time with the operator working them through the gears. At the end of 20 minutes the 'boxes that remained cool went in the export bikes, the warm ones to domestic market bikes and the hot ones to the army bikes.

Regards
Dave

[andrewaust]

Hi Dave & oldbmw


Thanks for the posts

Yeah that grease is not a good idea with a diesel, we need every single H.P we can get.

Interesting info on the boxes - hopefully my India box has the cast bushes, from memory they might be.

I'll never run grease again, didn't think it was a good idea in the first place, but to get the bike through rego it couldn't leak oil - "Period". I probably live in one of the most stringent places on earth regarding the strict conditions to put a bike through registration.

If I wanted to build a new diesel bike! Forget about it, the legal garbage would have you in a spin.



Cheers


Andrew

[John]

[quote="andrewaust"]
I let it drain overnight as it came out in blobs, and then topped it up with a good quality motor oil and test rode the bike.

Either it's just me, or it's true fact! Thick oil = GOO takes some of the H.P away from the engine resulting in poor pulling power up hills, into wind etc. It's still no race machine, but from the speedo it has helped.

Hi Andrew. I have recently received my diesel bike from Henry Price. It's in a vac bag for winter storage right now. Henry has filled the box with a mixture of 00 grease, which is very thin & runny, & topped up with motor oil as recommended. I didn't like this idea for the reasons you have outlined here, but Henry has considerable experience, so I went with the flow. My box has sealed bearings, so the only thing the lubricant has to be effective at, is lubricating the meshing gears & phosphor bush. My question; is it necessary to get the gearbox warmed up before draining out the gunge mixture, or will gravity alone do the job? Due to the phosphor bush, would I be better choosing the thicker '50' rating Chatsworth oil, or a thinner type? (assuming the box is oil tight-ish!)
I was impressed with the mpg figures you have been getting from your Yanclone with a 17T sprocket. I feel that the engine is capable of far better fuel figures than most posters indicate, but is stymied by over ambitious gearing, causing constant overload fueling from the governor. The Yanclone is, after all, only 8.45 bhp constant rating & 8.8 maximum. I wanted originally to go with the 16T sprocket, giving 52 mph @ 3600, but Henry talked me out of that. I am experimenting. I have a 19T at present, with close ratio gears. This gives a (theoretical) 61.5 mph @ 3600 in top, but also a nice round 50.04 mph @ 3600 in 3rd. When, or if, I'm reassured by the mpg figures driving constantly in 3rd, with the engine able to easily sustain its max power revs, with the governor able to reel in the fuel rate under most road conditions, I may then drop the engine primary sprocket to a 22T, lowering the overall gearing by 12% (54.2 mph) or even a 20T (20% reduction, or 50 mph (80 km) @ 3655 rpm). Not bothered about the low speeds, only fuel efficiency. The average road speed of a yanclone is only circa 50 mph (80 km/hr) anyway isn't it? & with the short gearing, I'll be able to sustain that in top under almost all road conditions. What are your thoughts from actual experience? DieselDave reckons that with his 18T, 58 mph (93 km) is as much as the engine can reasonably cope with. I don't want to ask the engine for all out effort in top, I'd rather it had an easy time of it. Full revs it is designed to sustain, but constant overload conditions are bad for economy! Thanks in advance for any thoughts, Andrew. John.

[Sphere]

Well Andrew cheats, because he overrevs his engine. So his top speed is higher. And from what I've learned today, Sommers may overrev the 1B40 to 4200rpm. Oh BTW, I think it is wise that you have chosen 19t, but I wonder if dropping the crank sprocket from 25->22 will require a different primary chain?

I'm looking forward to learn if your pessimistic views are confirmed. Sure hope not

[John]

Well Andrew cheats, because he overrevs his engine. So his top speed is higher. And from what I've learned today, Sommers may overrev the 1B40 to 4200rpm. Oh BTW, I think it is wise that you have chosen 19t, but I wonder if dropping the crank sprocket from 25->22 will require a different primary chain?
I'm looking forward to learn if your pessimistic views are confirmed. Sure hope not

Hi Sphere! I'm hoping my own pessimism will be proved wrong too! Time will tell. How did you discover about Sommer perhaps taking the Hatz to 4200? Were you unable to hit 58 mph @ 3600 with your 18T? I wouldn't have thought that would be any problem for 11 HP. Are you attaining the full 3600? - & yes, I will certainly require a shorter primary chain. Hitchcocks have all possible sizes to apply from a 20T to a 29T! If the 3rd gear scenario works well so far as economy is concerned, I may already have the best of both worlds in sticking with the 19. Especially when I want to get a shift on for the downhill bits!

[Sphere]

From a listing on German Ebay http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie ... 39214.html

[DieselDan]

Hey John, Sphere
I'm running a 17 tooth with stock primary gearing. Oil in box. Cruising speed roughly 50mph.
Gearbox internals not modified.

On one leg of a tour I managed to travel 568km on 9.00 liters.
This is

63.11km/l or

1.58l/100km

178.33mpg

Thats the highest I've got so far.
The engine has 4200km on it.

You say you feel that the engine can deliver more mileage. Do you reckon it can hit 200mpg?

[Sphere]

Nice stats. What is your top end?

[DieselDan]

Hi Sphere

Top end is about 90km/h, so 56.25mph. This is according to the inaccurate speedo that reads 10km/h too fast.

Also going by an excel gearing spreadsheet with all the parameters put in the top speed with the 17th is 90km/h.

[John]

You say you feel that the engine can deliver more mileage. Do you reckon it can hit 200mpg?

Hi Dan. That's very good mileage. Andrewaust has achieved 203 mpg @ 37- 44 mph using the same 17T sprocket (2400-2900 rpm). I have only just received my Yanclone Enfield from Henry Price, but have not yet ridden it due to the winter, & some detail work that needs doing first.
It's difficult to say at this stage, not having actual seat of the pants experience. But my reasons for thinking there might be a potential improvement in the mpg figures available, are as follows.
The Yanclone is 8.5 bhp continuous, & 8.8 bhp max. Other posters have calculated that it requires 5 bhp at the back wheel to achieve 51 mph, & 6 bhp to achieve 54.5 mph (by gps, NOT speedo!). This would be on the dead level on a calm day of course. A 436 cc Greaves Enfield I saw on YouTube on a dynamometer, showed 6.5 bhp at the back wheel. Different engine, but representative of what we might expect from a 406 cc Yanclone.
By dropping the gearing to say, 50 mph @ 3600, we then have a surplus output at the back wheel for hills & headwinds of nearly 2 bhp. This is important with a diesel governor, because it means the engine, even at full rated revs, is always inside its continuous work rate at cruising speed, & the governor can back the fuelling off to a large degree. Only giving full fuelling for hills. This is the opposite to what happens when the bike is overgeared with a 18 or 19 sprocket. The engine revs drop relative to road speed, but it can no longer develop the required HP for the speed. The engine governor therefore HAS to extend to overload fuelling all the time to work against the resistance, even at lower speeds. This wastes fuel. A 17T sprocket is possibly ideally matched to the engine so far as engine power / max speed is concerned, at 55 mph @ 3600 by gps. But leaves almost nothing in reserve at the back wheel for hills. A 16 sprocket may be better still at 52 mph @ 3600. But with 50 mph @ 3600, the bike should be able to maintain 50 even uphill within reason. With so few revs available for the diesel to develop its power, it really needs to be allowed to rev out, not donk along at middling revs!

[Sphere]

I may be overlooking this in your post, but if you travel at speed xx and your engine revs at 3600rpm or 3000rpm, the former enginespeed will consume more fuel. This is assuming a level surface. So with a 16t on secondary roads, I may have to rev all the way to 3600, while with a 19/20t I probably end up somewhere in the low 3000s. Surely that will save fuel.

Your scenario only covers topspeed uphill against howling gales.

[Anorak_ian]

Enfield 4 speeders - loose 25% of a 500cc petrol's HP when grease filled.

Wow 25%, I didn't know that, makes you wonder why any one would want to use grease.

Be careful about the type of oil you use and the types of bushes fitted, the aftermarket phosphor bronze ones need expensive Chatsworth type as the additives in std oils attack the bronze.

This is an argument that has been bouncing around Enfield owners since the 1960's - 70's.
I'm not sure, but I think it was a news paper article that started all this off with a report of one manufacturer (don't know which one) of EP90 (dif oil) being acidic and eating the softer metal like Zink out of the bronze bushes. Bronze being an alloy.

I have not heard of any problems of this kind with Hitchcock made bushes. But then if there were a problem of this kind surely they would make the bushes from a different kind of Bronze alloy.

If engine oil eats away soft metal then I wonder how on earth the white bearing surfaces of an engine cope.
I also wonder how other makes of gearboxes get on as I'm sure that Enfield / Albion are not the only manufactures that fitted bronze bushes as standard, and run them in oil.

If anyone is in any doubt, Hitchcock’s have a very well used forum. But be careful you may get blasted by owners that have been discussing this for many years,lol

[John]

I may be overlooking this in your post, but if you travel at speed xx and your engine revs at 3600rpm or 3000rpm, the former enginespeed will consume more fuel. This is assuming a level surface. So with a 16t on secondary roads, I may have to rev all the way to 3600, while with a 19/20t I probably end up somewhere in the low 3000s. Surely that will save fuel.

Your scenario only covers topspeed uphill against howling gales.

I was logged in, wrote a very long detailed reply that took several hours, submitted it, was asked to log in AGAIN, did so, & my entire message was wiped. I'm too disgusted to attempt to write it all out again. Sorry Sphere..

[Sphere]

I intend to be at Big Knock '11, lets talk about it over some of your draft.

[coachgeo]

...This is an argument that has been bouncing around Enfield owners since the 1960's - 70's.
I'm not sure, but I think it was a news paper article that started all this off with a report of one manufacturer (don't know which one) of EP90 (dif oil) being acidic and eating the softer metal like Zink out of the bronze bushes. Bronze being an alloy.... ...

Long known issue. as more and more equipment went to roller bearings manufactures of lube chanced the make up of oils to better suit the equipment.. particularly tranny/gear box lube. The newer formulations does have stuff corrosive to yellow metals. Exact same issues in the Mercedes Unimog world. You can not use GL5 rated oils in the Unimog 404 tranny (it has several broze bushings) or you will eventually have failure due to bushings no longer able to do their jobs. GL4 is best BUTtt... some of the synthetics and special oils rated at GL5 do NOT harm yellow metals and they are more superiror than GL4. You can call a lube manufactures tech. line just to make sure.

[Anorak_ian]

I don't doubt what you’re saying at all.
Various brake fluid Dot's don't mix, and if you do you will bugger up brake seals etc. So I know we must be carfull.
But we are talking EP 80, EP 90 and engine oil. Nothing exotic. I don't think EP90 is the stuff to use anyway, but hey.
Will Castrol gtx will rot a bronze bush? Brit bikes have been using gtx for yonks (or is it different now(changed)).
Not a recognised gear oil but Enfield owners do use it totally, others only to top up the grease.

If modern ep's and engine oils are going the rot route then I'm glad I have changed my box to one that uses roller bearings. Oh hang on, my seccond bike will use a 4 speed with bronze bushes, Hummmm....

[coachgeo]

... know we must be carfull........ But we are talking EP 80, EP 90 and engine oil. Nothing exotic. ... Hummmm.

Not talking exotic oils. EP 80, 90 gear oil is what I am refering too as well. GL4 and GL5 is the label that represents the lubes type of formulation while the EP number represents viscocity or lubercity rating; least here in the states it is. Not sure what nomenclature they use on the other side of the big pond from US.

[Anorak_ian]

Oh bugger. Special oil it is then lol.

[coachgeo]

Oh bugger. Special oil it is then lol.

not neccisarrily. Just get EP whatever you want and no higher than GL4 (or GL4 compatible).

[John]

I intend to be at Big Knock '11, lets talk about it over some of your draft.

Look forward to it!