Where's the new big winsun single?

[arnaud]

A few months ago (only) Winsun displayed on their website a 188 (438cc or so) single diesel engine with 12HP.
I asked about it but order was only possible with 18 peices at one time..

I was hoping that it was going to be available on the open market soon, and get a replacement for my 10hp diesel engine(when it breaks down)
We use the diesel enfield for summer holidays, and since we cannot pack as much as we did on the dnepr mt 10 with sidecar, it is very difficult to go against wind or hills with a passenger and luggage. (3rd gear is available, tolerance of co- road users not)
Alternating sprockets is quite difficult since it needs the removal of the entire primary case. and, the cruising speed of 80-90km/h is not something i want to go much lower..For normal anyday use with passenger this set is okay.

anyway, i cannot find this engine any more on their (difficult to open) website!
I tried to contact them, but you know how that works..
Does anyone know moe about it??

Anyway, Kipor launched a 610cc v-twin some time ago. singles have in my opinion practical and esthetic advantages, but maybe this is a good option. (but, i'm afraid much more expensive then the 250 dollar single diesel)

[Stuart]

Chris is using a Ruggerini Marine single, 541cc 14HP RD901. I've never seen it but it has to be one of the biggest singles out there don't it? Might be worth trying to track one down

[arnaud]

At the Hamm rally i heard many problems concerning the lombardini (=ruggerini)engines. maybe it concernes only an single type?
i know the 505 lombardini. maybe theis one is a heavyweight engine?
this site gives it a lower capacity, under 500cc; http://www.japopieces.fr/pdf/finimpiant ... -901-A.pdf

Anyway, i think a balancing gear or well-balanced crank is important for our use.
strange phenomenon, that designing and installing a counterbalance shaft is cheaper then balancing the engine..

[Sphere]

RY 125 is 505ccm 12HP 3600rpm.

http://www.peter-wade.de/cms/images/pdf/serieRY.pdf

[oldbmw]

At the Hamm rally i heard many problems concerning the lombardini (=ruggerini)engines. maybe it concernes only an single type?
i know the 505 lombardini. maybe theis one is a heavyweight engine?
this site gives it a lower capacity, under 500cc; http://www.japopieces.fr/pdf/finimpiant ... -901-A.pdf

Anyway, i think a balancing gear or well-balanced crank is important for our use.
strange phenomenon, that designing and installing a counterbalance shaft is cheaper then balancing the engine..

Yup, I dont buy into the countershaft thing either.
For a start you cannot balance a reciprocating weight with a rotating one. especially when the crank is changing speed all the time. Vibration is not only caused by the mechanical weight but also by the strength of the firing explosion. This is why most bikes run smoother down hill than uphill for the same speed. To me on for instance some of the new twins, you might as well have another cylinder, instead of rocking arms on fake big end journals. A big advantage witha three cylinder motor is that only one piston stops at a time, which helps lessen vibration.

[arnaud]

I've had a reply from the winsun company.
The bigger single is no longer in production
they are concentrating on various V-twin models.

[Winsun engine]

Dear Sir,


Thanks so much for your support to Winsun


At present, we are focus on the V-twin,air-cooled diesel engine with two cyliner, so we do not continue to manufacturer the 188 series.

Do you consider to try to use our new series engines, they are 22HP,25hp

If you need any information, can contact me MSN: feitian853@hotmail.com or mail to me Tracy@winsunpower.cn

[arnaud]

Some important info, what one doesn't get from the winsun company, it that the single cylinder, which costed over a yearto develop, is prone to break it's crankshaft.
Since the company is only interested in selling, they do not offer any quarantee or refund.
Ye be warned!
Very strange for an A-brand, since all the brandless chinese diesel engines are fairly good!
I took mine apart this winter and did not encounter alarming things..

[John]

Hi Arnaud. If the basic problem is maintaining a reasonable pace in undulating terrain, a close ratio gearset might help. My 8.8 hp yanclone is fitted with a 19t final drive sprocket, which gives a theoretical 61.55 mph @ 3600 in top. But with the close ratio gearset fitted, 3rd will pull 50.04 mph (80 Km) @ 3600 by gps.
With the 16T sprocket, the 350 petrol pulls 51.83 mph @ 3600 in top by gps. Since the yanclone develops 12.85 ft/lbs @ 3600, 6 ft/lbs less than the 350 petrol at the same engine speed, you should get excellent results, since the gearing is proportionally lower overall to the 350 commensurate with the diesel's lower torque & hp.
We would all like a bit more speed, but the laws of physics don't change. At 3600, the 350 petrol develops 13 bhp. At which it is only required to pull 52 mph. So it is unrealistic of us to expect 8.8 hp to pull 55 - 60, & still expect it to have anything in reserve for hills & headwinds. Effectively, I now have 2 top gear ratios to choose from depending upon terrain, with very little loss of overall road speed!
I don't know what final drive sprocket you have fitted at the moment, but if changing it is too arduous a task, why not change your engine sprocket instead? A much more straight forward job. With the 19T final drive sprocket, for example, dropping from the standard 25T engine sprocket down to 22T, takes the road speed in top from 61.55 mph down to 54.2 mph. With the 18T final, it will be 58.31 mph down to 51.3 mph. All speeds by gps, NOT speedo! - Of course you'll have to get any engine sprocket machined to fit the diesel crankshaft. Sprockets could be obtained ready machined from Henry Price of PricePart fame on request.
P.s By dropping the gearbox rpm relative to road speed, you increase frictional efficiency. That sludge filled 4 speeder soaks up a lot of engine power at higher revs. By increasing mechanical efficiency, & allowing the engine to easily maintain full power revs without being forced to go to overload fuelling 90% of the time, to reach an unrealistic cruise speed, you'll almost certainly find your mpg much better! Why do you think the 350 petrol can achieve 108 mpg with its short gearing? John.

[Sphere]

John, everywhere you pop up and perform these wonderful calculations. Fortunately, these dim views of what a small diesel engine can do, are contradicted by real world experience, where 10-11bhp engines achieve 100-120km/h speeds. It would be nice if you could show your entire calculation, so I can understand why the result turns out so pessimistic.

[Diesel Dave]

Top speeds are incredibly variable depending on many many factors mostly aerodynamics, for instance add a widscreen to a C90 and gain 5mph.

For starters the 10hp quoted for the Yanma could be anywhere from 9 to 11 hp in reality and it really depends on how well it's set up and run in.

Changing the engine sprocket means a new primary chain - a very expensive option, they are endless and the gearbox position is fixed.

There is a great temptation to play with numbers before you get a dieselbike and after you have ridden one for a while it all seems a bit acedemic, over time you will adapt the bike to your needs and either accept it's performance or experiment with tuning options.

Sluggy started out at 360cc, and topped out at about 45mph, now is 400cc with shortened rockers for more valve lift and will top 55 on occasion, the next move will be the higher compression piston from the specialist generator version of the engine.

10hp should get you to 55, but not on every occasion, any slight incline will have you down below 45, a downhill run may see 60.

The enfield box is an effecient wee beastie, if you can afford it the close ratio gearset is a very worthwhile upgrade and you can swap to oil lubrication at the same time. As slight inclines will have a dire effect on your speed the big gap between 3 & 4 will prevent you being able to change down unless you have a close ratio gearset.

If you want 70, then go for a twin or triple engine, I can cruise at 70-80 on the Tiger and get 90mpg BUT it's a big beast and taking it down to the shops feels like taking the QE2 on the Grand Union Canal.

One day I will get around to turbo charging the single.

[John]

John, everywhere you pop up and perform these wonderful calculations. Fortunately, these dim views of what a small diesel engine can do, are contradicted by real world experience, where 10-11bhp engines achieve 100-120km/h speeds. It would be nice if you could show your entire calculation, so I can understand why the result turns out so pessimistic.

Hi Sphere. My pessimism doesn't spring from calculation, but from personal experience of circa 10 hp bikes. I hope I will be proved completely wrong in my pessimism by real world experience on my diesel bike, & that your claims will be substantiated. But it is not so much what is available at the crankshaft, but what is available at the rear wheel that concerns me. On the Hitchcocks site, I read of a dynamometer test on a 4 speed 500 petrol Enfield. The engine was a 22 bhp carb model, & the output at the rear wheel was 15.62 bhp!! Even if the engine was substandard in output, & below manufacturers claims, that is still a substantial power loss. If it were repeated in diesel form, even with lower losses due to lower rpm, that still doesn't leave much change out of 6.5 - 7 bhp at the wheel from a yanclone. I was responding to Arnaud, who was explaining that he was struggling with a pillion against hills & headwinds, & having to spend significant periods of time in 3rd to compensate. John.

[Diesel Dave]

Like anything else enfield there are hige differences in manufacturing tollerances, here's a story told to me by Jochen Sommer (of the Sommer Hatz fame).

Back in the 1990' he went on a factory visit, one of the test machines he saw was a gearbox running in bench - it mounted 4 gearboxes to an electric drive system and the operator would run them up for 20 minutes working through the gears on each one. At the end of the test a simple back of the hand temperature test determined where the gearboxes would end up.

Very hot - Indian Army bikes
Hot - domestic market
Cool - export models

If you want it to be effecient, then strip it down and replace the bearings and bushes and fill it with oil, after about 100 hours it will loosen up nicely.

Also remember that the chain makes a hige difference too, it's a 530 size which is massive for the power output of the bike, if it's new it will have a fair amount of drag, if it's dry = ditto, worn = ditto. Diesels can be hard on chains.

Don't get me started on tyres......

[bhtooefr]

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.p ... st48688974

That shows a Yanmar 406 going through a CVT (is that a Comet 94D/90C?) and putting down 8 hp and 13 ft-lbs at the rear wheel. (And here's a video of the dyno, although it doesn't show the results: http://s82.photobucket.com/albums/j259/ ... V00731.mp4)

So, that's a 20% drivetrain loss - a hell of a lot better than an Enfield.

[Sphere]

Hi John, wow that's just sad. I do hope my rearwheel bhp will be a bit better. I plan on running it on oil, hopefully mine won't leak so much after I change the bearings. Ian has advised me to pick up bronze bushes from Hitchcock's which I might. For now I want to what the performance is like.

The honda/yanclone video in Iraq shows that you can achieve 90kph/55mph, I wonder if it will be more efficient than final drive on an Enfield gearbox running with nice bearings in oil. But I guess we'll see.

[pietenpol2002]

We've previously posted the clip of this Norwegian Enfield that produces "close" to 6.5 hp on the dyno. Curiously, that's what the 325cc engine is rated at the crank, while the 436cc version is only rated at 7.5 hp (do I have that right?).
Interesting also are the comments, where the owner notes having added a turbo with a resulting loss of only 1 hp. Ha!!
And the Robin engined rider who claims that acceleration is a quick without shifting as it is by using the gearbox.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnq88KTjkvc

[John]

We've previously posted the clip of this Norwegian Enfield that produces "close" to 6.5 hp on the dyno. Curiously, that's what the 325cc engine is rated at the crank, while the 436cc version is only rated at 7.5 hp (do I have that right?).
Interesting also are the comments, where the owner notes having added a turbo with a resulting loss of only 1 hp. Ha!!
And the Robin engined rider who claims that acceleration is a quick without shifting as it is by using the gearbox.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnq88KTjkvc

Ha ha! The 'Robin' rider comment about accelleration being little different even when pulling away in top - was ME! - Hiyadroogs is my YouTube username. I was of course using a little poetic licence & being rather tongue in cheek! Although I certainly WAS amazed that the ol' thumper could easily pull top from a standing start without touching the twist grip!