My Track T-800cdi (Bert's!) 3,2

[BertTrack]

Well I have come to a close on the hard work with it.
The c.v.t. unit is now operating in a nice rpm.
Overall engine rpm. has dropped nicely and i can do 100km/hr at 3000rpm or less.
Adding 2 grams to the weights has made the bike crawl a tiny tiny tiny bit. (Pushing it forwards and backwards with idle engine i notice no difference though) So i suspect it's only when it's just started. And runs at 940 rpm.
An even bigger influence on the smoothness of the engine and drive line was balancing the 6 weight combo's in the primairy cvt. Whereas I had a 2.5 gram difference before between certain weight packages i evened them out to within 1 hundredths of a gram. This alone (separate step) cancelled out the heavy vibration at lower rpm.
Fuel usage has dropped to 3.3 liters on 100km. Enough for me considering the 2l in 100km figure was gotten with a fixed gearbox only.

Remaining item of getting enough charge seems to be an issue mainly in the winter time. So I will address that coming winter.

There are items that have to be changed or checked still based on the info from the producer. He'll provide the parts and info. So I will have to wait on that to get started on that. (I will do that work myself )

I suspect to be riding more than fixing things from this point on. So if someone still has questions or would like to know something specific, ask me.

Should any big things rise up though I will keep you informed.

[BertTrack]

It's when you post things like this, that the gremlins start coming out.

My ride by wire pick up seems to have sporadic failures. This is making things interesting when on the road.

[coachgeo]

It's when you post things like this, that the gremlins start coming out.

My ride by wire pick up seems to have sporadic failures. This is making things interesting when on the road.

Murphy is always in charge.

Your ride by wire operates what part of the bike? Throttle?

[BertTrack]

Yes,

The throttle cables run into the area behind the headlight and there operate either a position meter, or variable resistance? I don't know exactly yet.

So far it feels like I've temporarily solved it by squirting a good dose of WD-40 on the connector plugs near the ECU. Making me lean to the resistance one. But i won't know for sure till i open it up completely. (the fairing) This week I'll have a chance to try it out again.

[Dan J]

Having seen a YouTube video of one of these engines being revved out of the car ages ago I am VERY sure the throttle runs off a potentiometer/variable resistor. They can't do anything other than wear out after a while so would be great to find out what spec it is and maybe have a spare or two at the ready?

[BertTrack]

Thank you Dan J very good to know. And indeed something to look into. Spares.

The throttle position where it was loosing r.p.m. is the area where i hold it the most. Not even 16k km on it and already having this issue. ouch

The WD-40 did it's job. Had a splendid day today riding it through Belgium.

[BertTrack]

After some work on the Track it's now ready for France. Just a new tire to sort tomorrow and I'll be all done.

Last work was installing the cooling fan bracket with fan. Wiring it.

Checking common rail pipe and bolts e.t.c. Check engine mounts. All seem to be ok.

Put it all back together and have rode it on a small trip today. It's running well.

[BertTrack]

Yesterday i got the parts in.

Engine mount and other screws to tighten the commonrail line even more (mercedes update i think).

Am done fixing that now just putting things together again.

The test ride after this.

http://youtu.be/EFHWLNmitzc

[BertTrack]

So the new motor mount apparently isn't build to work with the radiator fan.

Tomorrow i will try again to build it back together.

Today was a day full of grinding metal and cursing.

28-7 And it's back together. Took it for a quick drive. And my prediction is something else will break. A lot more micro vibrations. High frequency. But it'll get me to Limoges i think. Time to register for it.

http://youtu.be/p9ZVw1XK-z4

[BertTrack]

After my weekend at the first French dieselmotorcycle meeting i noticed the Track was hanging a bit much to the left whenever i put it on it's side stand.

Of course sometimes it was due to the asphalt giving way to the Track but i do seem to have an error in the side stand system.

Took it apart today and discovered that the metal used for the plate to pivot the stand on is very soft. And was also covered with powder paint layer. So where it was a tight right fit i have now gained play in all directions because the paint is peeling off and where ever there is movement and vibration the pivot plate is giving way to the harder metal of the sidestand itself.

Sounds like i have an additional item on the list to do. Besides making the rear fork adjustable to take out the axial play, rebalancing the whole c.v.t. system and getting some custom helix parts made.

[BertTrack]

So an update.

I did the above.

Took the play out of the rear fork. It feels much more planted on the road.

Checked and mainly cleaned the cvt unit. With steam etc etc. Put it all back together and now it's running even lower in rpm... I think i maybe now where the other Bert is at with the bike crawling a little when idle etc. So i think that's all good.

I get a decent top speed not even at 4000rpm now. So i am happy. Not a lot of resonance vibrations anymore in the drive line.

Just... A lot of high frequency vibrations (per burn cycle of the engine) in the handlebars and everywhere. Since that last motor mount which tightened the rubber a bit more than the old one this has been happening.

And today my radiator decided it can't take the vibrations anymore. And the endcap is coming loose on the bottom. Solder joint just leaking.

So i have my next project lined out.

[coachgeo]

So an update.........

I think i maybe now (know or now??) where the other Bert (other Bert??? you have a twin name Bert??) is at with the bike crawling a little when idle etc. ...

So your bike now engages the CVT too early?

Just... A lot of high frequency vibrations (per burn cycle of the engine) in the handlebars and everywhere. Since that last motor mount which tightened the rubber a bit more than the old one this has been happening.

You may have done this already... I forget. Have you put anti-vibration bar ends into the handlebars?

[BertTrack]

It engages fully around 1200rpm. But there is a little belt pressure @ idle. Enough to keep rolling 3mph or less. The force is so little i can backpeddle still without extra force.

Ideally the weights would be a little lights. And heavier once above 2000rpm. Unfortunatly with this cvt that is not an option.

There is another Bert with a Track.

I have been looking at those anti vibration weights. The radiator on the track is connected to the engine on the bottom end (middle) the top side is connected to the frame.

So any engine vibration will translate in stress on the radiator.

I'll see what i can construct to disconnect the engine support.

[BertTrack]

Update on the radiator. It's been holding out for about 2000km then it broke again.

So tomorrow i'll take it all apart again.

Possible causes the mercedes spec coolant isn't good enough for the radiator. (the vw one is better for aluminium) But i have asked and i was supposed to use the mercedes one....

Oh well.

[BertTrack]

The radiator has been fixed again. But i lost a roll from the sec. cvt. Got my custom helix part fitted and found out the track for the wheel in the cvt narrows so much any deformation of the wheel in the cvt causes it to block halfway another ratio limiting item. Oh bugger.

[coachgeo]

The radiator has been fixed again. But i lost a roll from the sec. cvt. Got my custom helix part fitted and found out the track for the wheel in the cvt narrows so much any deformation of the wheel in the cvt causes it to block halfway another ratio limiting item. Oh bugger.

Sorry it's a little late in the evening....... maybe I should wait for clarification till I gander at what you say tommorow........ but hind sight is 20/20 lol so I'll make a fool of my self and ask now...

tell me if I read you right...... your custom Helix allows the sheaves to close tight enough it pushes against the rollers thus now allowing it to use the full ramp of the helix?

[BertTrack]

I don't mind you asking Coach on the contrary.

Because it allows me to think again about it.

Originally: The roll in the sec. cvt has a tight fit on the outer half of the cvt. (high gear) When that roll deforms it has trouble fitting and increases the resistance to reach high gear causing the Track to remain in mid gear area. (another but big reason why it won't shift up)

With my custom helix the space is even more of a tight fit (together with the new rolls) I do not know how it would perform with old non deformed rolls.

http://youtu.be/HvIaLvcHPc0 The movie.

Here are some pictures of the old deformed rolls.

This is how far my custom helixes were used with the old deformed rolls.

I simply never thought the fitting between the two helix part would be an issue. And with the spring in the sec. cvt it's not an easy thing to test. But now that i have removed the spring i see what a tight fit it is and i have to wonder if, that margin is the cause of all evil (with deformed rolls)

The rolls deform quit easily because of them hitting the helix unrestricted when the motorcycle takes off from standstill. The belt is a little too long and in the stationairy position the sec cvt plates are pressed on to each other and no longer pressing against the belt. So no restrictive friction to keep the rolls from slamming into the helix.

I need a 90cm cvt belt. Or so.. ish.

[coachgeo]

Just came across this. http://grabcad.com/questions/continuous ... o-make-one contains links to some CVT studies that might aid you

Also do you yet have Olav Aaens clutch tuning handbook?
http://www.amazon.com/Olav-Aaens-clutch ... B0006R954Y (make sure to get the latest edition. Not sure this link is to latest or not)

[BertTrack]

Thanks coach,

I'm not into tuning though, i need it to be mechanically sound first.

In the picture 2 posts above you see the black plastic helix guides. Those actually inhibit the travel of the c.v.t. once the rolls get a beating. (very little play originally)

The beating happens because the belt is too long. I think the c.v.t. will work well with a shorter belt and loosing the black guides.

Don't have the belt yet so i'll try without the black bits soonish. Will update when i do.

11-2 i have found a replacement belt. Gates type 29C3596 I'll try to get it asap.

[BertTrack]

The gates belt is in. And installed. I had one test ride and could hear the clear clunk of the rolls against the helix on both starts from stand still that night.

The belt and cvt ride well. No slip as far as i can feel and a nice pickup. But i have to keep in mind it's the first ride only.

Next step is putting some rubber on the helix surfaces. I'll be cutting a 20degree triangle from an old piece of stirdy rubber and fit that on the helix slope. Giving me a 65 degree angle overall. I'm still debating to either only cover the area where it can hit. Or go for the whole helix.

There have now been 2 track motorcycles that i know of with worn-out spline in the sec. c.v.t. axle.

Maybe the lack of rubber in the drive line causes this to happen.

[coachgeo]

The gates belt is in. And installed. I had one test ride and could hear the clear clunk of the rolls against the helix on both starts from stand still that night.

The belt and cvt ride well. No slip as far as i can feel and a nice pickup. But i have to keep in mind it's the first ride only.

Next step is putting some rubber on the helix surfaces. I'll be cutting a 20degree triangle from an old piece of stirdy rubber and fit that on the helix slope. Giving me a 65 degree angle overall. I'm still debating to either only cover the area where it can hit. Or go for the whole helix.

There have now been 2 track motorcycles that i know of with worn-out spline in the sec. c.v.t. axle.

Maybe the lack of rubber in the drive line causes this to happen.

Know anyone who knows French? While they speak English at CVTech I hear you get better response if you communicate in French. Anyway........ with two bikes now having that issue I would be talking to them! !!! They may have a Clutch tuning suggestion that will slow the pace of the roller hitting the end where it eventually causes breakage. I hear they know their shiat lol. For example a different ramp design they may already have which may reduce/eliminate this issue. For example a multi angle ramp?

Maybe an additional way to attack this is to go with a stronger splined shaft? A harder metal? If worried that forces that can break other things will be transferred thru the stronger shaft to them then maybe a stronger machined splined shaft outer held to an inner shaft via sacrificial shear pin(s) that would let go first? and or Machine that stop end piece down before adding the rubber so you've both cushioned it and moved further away? Can return back to normal height with a thicker rubber if needed?

[coachgeo]

Granted....... upon re-Reading this thread maybe the above thoughts are just ramblings cause I seem to get a different (better? worse?) understanding of what it seems your saying the issue is.

What does a deformed roller look like? Is it no longer round? Is it more Oval than round or is flat spots created? orrr?

Still feel a discussion with a CVTech guru is in order

[BertTrack]

Unfortunatly. Yes i've talked to them in English. Without help. I have talked with them through their european head office, he was kind enough to translate my issues. The reply i got in short: "It's an R&D thing we can't send you parts. Talk to the motorcycle producer"

And he says there are no other helix parts. So bob's my uncle. (not)

The rolls get slammed into the helix. Deforming them a little every time. It's hard plastic/fiber and every time it deforms it stretches.

Increasing the diameter stops the cvt from using about half of the ratio available.

And at one point they increase so much that the roll comes off the little shaft they are on completely. Causing the steel axle to hit the aluminium helix. Not a pretty sight.


I have tried with the rubber and it worked well. Untill the rubbers let go. Then it's back to clunk and clonk. But up till that time it was pretty fancy smancy all the way.

I'll have a talk with the chap that drew the helix i have now. He's quite the materials specialist.

[coachgeo]

Is there room for a spring like a brake spring? from roller area to the top of the ramp so when the roller drops rapidly it takes a bit of the load off? Guess spring would have to have slide/movement with no tension one way and the other way it have tension tightest as it approaches the stop it is now slamming into.

real bad picture/drawing attached

[BertTrack]

I like that idea.

I have been thinking about getting another custom set of helix parts made that hold rubber on the helix surface.

Another option is a bolt that limits the rotation inside the helix diameter on the housing itself. Put a rubber head on that and see what happens.

I like your idea. I'll let it stew with the rest of the ideas in my head.

[BertTrack]

The helixes with rubber glued on.

Installed.

After the test ride. Rubber has let go.

Note the space between the parts indicating the plates are resting on the belt rubber instead of the teflon ring.

So with the rubber it ran as sweet as can be.

I have since then reinstalled the original helix parts to see how that new roll/wheel holds up in the original setting. Conclusion. Too much clunk.

[coachgeo]

I thought you said you felt the wear on the roller was from it slamming to an end point and not the actual rolling along the ramp itself? So if that is the case why the rubber on the ramps? Just a ..... "what the hell lets see if this will help thing?

[BertTrack]

Ah well, there is no end point. There is just the roller hitting the helix. That's why the rubber is on the helix.

When you go off throttle. The roll leaves the helix surface and ends up in the far corner away from the helix.

Open the throttle and the roll comes rushing into the helix at force with the momentum of one sheave behind it. Only then do both sheaves transfer power to the axle of the c.v.t. It's then when you hear a clunk.

[coachgeo]

Ah well, there is no end point. There is just the roller hitting the helix. That's why the rubber is on the helix.

When you go off throttle. The roll leaves the helix surface and ends up in the far corner away from the helix.

Open the throttle and the roll comes rushing into the helix at force with the momentum of one sheave behind it. Only then do both sheaves transfer power to the axle of the c.v.t. It's then when you hear a clunk.

ahhhhh...... ok missunderstood earlier. hmm....... wonder then if the roller was in a slot and the slot had a spring in that to cushion things some like its own shock absorber so to speak. Or if the helix sat on springs to give it an initial cushion as the rollers make first contact.

But...... beside that....... snowmobiles with high rpm potential Im sure got to be going thru the same slam. You might consider popping over to a snowmobile board to pick their brains. See if you can find one with good CVT discussions. That might hint that there is a few good CVT knowledgeable folk on a particular board. CVT's have been in snowmobiles longer than any product that uses them.

[BertTrack]

I should check that out.

The big difference mostly is the rpm range for both the primairy and the secondairy c.v.t with mine it's 4000 rpm max aprox. And in snow mobiles they ussually start pulling at that rpm.

They will be geared for the rpm and rotate easily upon pick up. Mine isn't and has a back wheel on tarmac to content with instead of snow.

I will check it out

And an added note. Besides the clunk, the new belt is kicking ass. Combined with the heavier weights and the lower gear ratio in the rear wheel i'm not hitting the rev limiter any more. I am finally capable of acceleration flat out. Minus the 0 to 30 kph range where i make sure i don't get a clunk