Ruggerfields gearbox

Gearbox questions & answers etc..

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Re: Ruggerfields gearbox

Post by Stuart » Mon May 18, 2009 10:50 pm

Actually the main bearing seems to just slot straight in. It's very snug but not tight. I will put some bearing fix around the outer edge maybe before I put it in. The new seal is already in there.
I see what you mean about these oil fling washers at the small bearing end. They are gonna chew up the bearing seal. I've made a washer to replace the outer one but the inner appears to be holding the dog cog on. I shall see if the replacement comes with one on before sorting that. Like you say, grinding them so it won't gouge the seal in some way.
Would you reccomend I put bearing seal on the surface of the mainshaft as I fit it into the big main bearing sprocket side? Or does that close metal to metal fit seal it ok? Or does something else seal that? Excuse my ignorance.
I was able to familiarise myself with the whole thing a bit better tonight. And I cleaned it up a bit better too :D
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Re: Ruggerfields gearbox

Post by Anorak_ian » Mon May 18, 2009 11:46 pm

Just a quick reply as it's past my bed time

" Would you reccomend I put bearing seal on the surface of the mainshaft as I fit it into the big main bearing sprocket side? "

Yes I use bearing seal on the inside of the big main bearing and the sleeve, you'll notice that only half the width of the bearing can be sealed as the splines from the sproket and spacer go up to far, but half can be sealed, this will stop any chance of oil getting past and going through the spacer and sprocket and dripping between sprocket and the nut.

The 2002 indian sleeve doesn't use a spacer as the splines are shorter, and so the whole bearing inner diamiter can be sealed to the sleeve, not just half of it. In 2002 they also changed the design so a rubber ring at the back of the sprocket seals oil from getting down the same way, to the sprocket and nut. You just need a 2002 sprocket and the rubber ring to go the 2002 route. But that's more expence.

ZZzzzzzzz Time for bed.

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Re: Ruggerfields gearbox

Post by Sphere » Tue May 19, 2009 8:30 am

Where do you source these seals, felt washers and possible O rings? I want to modify my gearbox so it can run on oil instead of grease. For bearings I'm using 2RS ones (or SNF EE).
'92 Enfield + Hatz 1B40: street legal, weld up stainless exhaust, check engine rpm and change final drive sprocket.

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Re: Ruggerfields gearbox

Post by Anorak_ian » Tue May 19, 2009 9:05 am

You can get them from Hitchcock's or you can get them direct from India via ebay http://myworld.ebay.co.uk/royalspares/ I compare prices including vat and del and just go with the cheapest, it's all the same stuff. If you look at the web page 2002 on at Hitchcock's "Parts books on line" "2002 500 Bullet (4 speed-Kickstart)" "Gear Case and Gears" you get a diagram from there and a part number which is the same from India.
Or click here http://www.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/fu ... tid=102105


For bearings and seals the local bearing stockest is by far the best, I get NSK from Eriks, and SKF from Brammer, NSK has a slightly closer tolorance (it don't wobble as much) than the SKF, both are cheeper than an un named brand from Hitchcock's which are not a patch on the other two makes.

Hope I've helped.
Ian

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Re: Ruggerfields gearbox

Post by Diesel Dave » Tue May 19, 2009 9:28 am

I still don't think you need to swap the bearings for sealed ones to run oil in place of grease.

I'd swap out the lube and see how much it leaks/uses before stripping and replacing bearings.

It takes ages to get the old grease out and the box needs to be really hot so wait for a summers day and a long ride and then pull the plug. If you swap the bushes for Phosphor Bronze then choose the oil very carefully - Seagul outboard motor oil is a 140 grade and suitable as is the Chatsworth classic stuff.

BTW there is a product called Activ8 - it's a friction reducing additive but not based on any solids like PTFE and it makes a big difference to the gearbox drag. I tested the drag with a spring balance after 1000 miles and found it to be 33% less (hot gearbox and primary/final chains removed, force applied through the clutch outer bolts in a circular direction averaged through all gears). No connection with the product or company!

The best upgrade is to fettle the ratchet for better performance - if I was bringing Sluggy to the Bat & Ball you could have tried it but this will be the Tigers year :D

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Re: Ruggerfields gearbox

Post by Anorak_ian » Tue May 19, 2009 9:41 am

"The best upgrade is to fettle the ratchet for better performance" ? Do you mean the kick start ratchet?

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Re: Ruggerfields gearbox

Post by Diesel Dave » Tue May 19, 2009 10:10 am

No the gearchange ratchet 8)

I have 2 x 4 speeders currently on the road - the diesel which I fettled and the 2003 petrol with 24k on the clock.

Chalk and cheese difference and all that was required was to 'face' the upper and lower plates on a flat surface and 1200 wet & dry using oil and edge the sides of the teeth with a swiss file, and remove any guillotine manufacturing marks.

I can even select neutral at a standstill with a hot 3 plate clutch!

Dave

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Re: Ruggerfields gearbox

Post by Dan J » Tue May 19, 2009 11:13 am

I can even select neutral at a standstill...
That's nothing - I can select up to three of those! Often whilst on the move... :shock:
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Re: Ruggerfields gearbox

Post by Anorak_ian » Tue May 19, 2009 11:17 am

Ah, yes I know what you mean, what I do is shim it up with very fine washers on top of the hex posts, this gives the moving parts the clearance it needs, but your way is best.

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Re: Ruggerfields gearbox

Post by Sphere » Tue May 19, 2009 11:25 am

Actually I would be swapping them out so metal grit does not end up in the bearrings, not to make it oil tight.
Diesel Dave wrote:I still don't think you need to swap the bearings for sealed ones to run oil in place of grease.

I'd swap out the lube and see how much it leaks/uses before stripping and replacing bearings.
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Re: Ruggerfields gearbox

Post by Stuart » Tue May 19, 2009 7:24 pm

Ok, I have the new shaft and sleeve and they are a perfect match. Well done Ian :!: :D Dave, good job you said that about sealed/no sealed bearings because Hitchcocks have not sent a small sealed bearing as requested :!: It's open, so it looks like I will be able to continue to use those oil flingers. I'll just have to make sure the cap is sealed with a little of the blue stuff as I think someone before me has used. Funny, they send the seperate seal I requested for this small bearing only they got that wrong too and sent the big one for the other end. I already have one of those pushed in ready for the big bearing to go on top.
Yes, the new sleeve looks like it's new and the shaft and gears are in better nick than I have. It's the right length, diameter at small end and the keyways on the sleeve are even extended deeper than the Bullets to accomodate my original sprocket and the outer splined sealing ring. I have to put/offer up the sprocket as the main shaft goes into the main bearing because the way the carrier is made it won't go on after.
I also got a sprocket nut because, strangley, mine won't fit (loose when it came apart). Problem is the outer dia of this is crucial to rest inside the second in (central) carrier bearing. I might have to get sleeve knocked up to take up the space.
I have to buy some oil soon. I don't have to to go hunting for specialised stuff so what would you guys reccomend I put it there? EP90?
I'm getting there, slowly :D
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Re: Ruggerfields gearbox

Post by Anorak_ian » Tue May 19, 2009 9:03 pm

I'm glad things are working out. I don't think EP90 is any good, the old EP90 was acidic and rots the bronze bushes, some people say that modern EP90 although not acidic is still not the oil to use, for a reason that eludes me at the moment.
The racing Greeves boxes I have worked on have some really thin oil in them, but I doubt if that's any good for us.

Over to you Dave. :)

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Re: Ruggerfields gearbox

Post by Stuart » Tue May 19, 2009 10:14 pm

He's a couple of shots of the new old sprocket nut alongside the one I took off the bike. You can see that the one I took off is slightly wider. Gotta bring the other up to that really with a bush of some sort. Still can't quite figure how the builder got the thread size wrong. It's not Witworth or metric even. Just dunno on that one :?
Anyway, the bearings have been fitted into their respective casings now and tomorrow I may have a got at putting it together.

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Sprocket nuts 2
nuts1.JPG
Sprocket nuts

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Re: Ruggerfields gearbox

Post by Stuart » Wed May 20, 2009 11:03 pm

Lovely evening, song thrush singing it's heart out to the occassional sound of a tinkling spanner. A steaming cuppa and an old Royal Enfield slowly going back together..... 8)
My cogs went in this evening and the chain went on. Colin in the machine shop at work is gonna press fit a bush over my new sprocket nut so it seats into the middle carrier.
I just hope she holds her oil ok. Sealed up the bearings when fitted with bearing it ok. The gasket went on fine between box and middle case. I shall re-tighten it tomorrow fefore any oil goes in. Tomorow I will have a play with the mechanism for gear selection and clutch.
I'm a little concerned about this felt washer. It's inner dia is a bit small if I'm to push it up the mainshaft to the sprocket section and clutch section gap. This is the place I have to guard against oil coming out right?

S

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Re: Ruggerfields gearbox

Post by andrewaust » Thu May 21, 2009 9:47 am

Great to see things are coming together Stuart, Bugger ! :shock: I've been reading through the tread and have to say it seems like a big bloody job.

Looks like you'll be cruising around in no time though to relieve the "stress" :? 8) :P .



A :)

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Re: Ruggerfields gearbox

Post by Anorak_ian » Thu May 21, 2009 10:02 am

Hi, yes the felt goes in to the nut, depending on what nut you have I know of three different types, anyhow I bet you have the most common type, just push it in to the nut and then bung the nut over the main shaft and tighten up (do it this way to stop felt getting in the thread). New felt, nice and plump, you may have a bit of a job getting it on, it does squash down with time. :)

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Re: Ruggerfields gearbox

Post by Stuart » Thu May 21, 2009 2:26 pm

Ok Ian, I'll look at getting the felt over the end of the clutch thread and back up to nearer the cog. When I get the nut back with it's new bush I'll tighten it on :D Then the carrier and whole primary side can go back on there. Gotta figure out the gear change side out first I think tho :D
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Sprocket on loose

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Re: Ruggerfields gearbox

Post by Diesel Dave » Thu May 21, 2009 8:10 pm

You know Stu....

Chains appreciate a little oil from time to time........


Last time I saw one that rusty it was still attached to the Titanic :D :D :D :D

Dave

PS. Make sure you have engaged the change arm on the gearbox cover with the operating arm inside the gearbox when replacing the inner cover....Ask me how I know this is important!

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Re: Ruggerfields gearbox

Post by Anorak_ian » Thu May 21, 2009 10:29 pm

Lol, & Lol. :D

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Re: Ruggerfields gearbox

Post by Stuart » Thu May 21, 2009 11:43 pm

Dave, I managed to engage the change mechanism ok but not before I experienced a little trouble with the clutch pushrod :!: I thought you said these boxes were easy :?: Basically the rod would not go through the new shaft. I spent 3 hours with a bent, thin rasp filing the inside of the shaft to clear this lip which appeared to be in evidence. Then I had the rod in the drill and sandpapered it to thin it down a little. Finally managed to get in so that it fell through under it's own steam. Now I know why I never liked working on this old Brit stuff :D
Should get my bushed sprocket nut tomorrow. Then the primary side can go on and oil can go in. What's the betting it all comes out again :D The manual doesn't tell me how much oil to put into her only give the volume of grease. If I can to fill her up without having to get another spanner near the level plug I will be happy. Any ideas on oil capacity?
Just need to put the neutral finder and shifter on right side now.
Yes, that chain has been submerged in oil for months but just before it came off the salt got to it and rusted her up a bit. It's only surface rust though.

Stuart

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Re: Ruggerfields gearbox

Post by Diesel Dave » Fri May 22, 2009 8:13 am

Brit pushrods are thinner......

Because I have the longer shaft I had to use 2 pushrods cut down a bit with a few ball bearings in between.

OTOH if it was a Jappo box it would never have gone wrong in the first place! :D :D

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Re: Ruggerfields gearbox

Post by Stuart » Fri May 22, 2009 11:12 am

Ok, Colin has fitted me a bush onto the original Enfield sprocket nut (so it should rest nicely in the central carrier bearing)and I will go for a fit this afternoon. In the pic see both my nuts 8)

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Both my sprocket nuts

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Re: Ruggerfields gearbox

Post by Anorak_ian » Fri May 22, 2009 11:34 am

Stuart wrote:see both my nuts.
Oooer! :D

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Re: Ruggerfields gearbox

Post by Stuart » Fri May 22, 2009 10:49 pm

Right, after 8 hours solid work on the bike this afternoon I am now please to say it is finally back together and working :D :D :D
The new bush on the nut was brought down with a little emery cloth so as to be an exact fit into the carrier. Then, bit by bit, the whole thing went back together pretty much without a hitch :D
The new spring plunger which gives the rachet between gears is making changing a bit stiff but it's getting better with use. As yet I've not see any oil leak from the box and finally, I have all 4 gears back :D :D
The neutral finder is a little odd but that's probably because I greased it when I should have oiled it I guess.
All ready now for the Rally next week 8) All that remains is to put some miles on it and hope that nothing falls off :!:
I must now write up some notes within the Ruggerfields RE manual detailing exactly what bike/model the gearbox is actually from - ready for next time :!:

Big thanks to everyone who helped me out here :!: I doubt I would have been able to do it and to do it as quickly as this without the wit and wisdom of fellow forum members :D
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Re: Ruggerfields gearbox

Post by andrewaust » Sat May 23, 2009 3:49 am

Time for a nice ride, then come home put your feet up and have a beer Stuart :)!


A ;)

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Re: Ruggerfields gearbox

Post by Crazymanneil » Sat May 23, 2009 10:02 am

Great stuff. Look forward to seeing it in the flesh next weekend then! :)

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Re: Ruggerfields gearbox

Post by Stuart » Tue May 26, 2009 12:02 am

Slight cloud on the horizon as far as my repair goes. Looks like a few drips of oil on the garage floor under the sprocket area after saturdays 50 mile ride. Clear oil as well. I've left a tissue under it all evening and no more drips have landed on it as yet. Maybe it came out under pressure and only directly after the ride? Anyway, it doesn't appear to be as sealed as it should be :x Time will tell I guess. Maybe I'll have to bung some of that grease in there after all :D
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Re: Ruggerfields gearbox

Post by BoxerOtto » Tue May 26, 2009 3:56 am

hey stuart, throw a little uv dye in the mix first, black light should show where it's coming from. most auto shops should have. don't give up on making it leak free yet.

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Re: Ruggerfields gearbox

Post by Stuart » Tue May 26, 2009 2:36 pm

Cheers Otto, that's an option I didn't think of :D There was 1 drip i think during the night (I looked this morning) so not too bad at the moment. Main thing is that it's ok to get to the rally :D

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Re: Ruggerfields gearbox

Post by Diesel Dave » Tue May 26, 2009 3:18 pm

Shucks my Ultima looses more than that :D

In Enfield terms this should be considered absolutely oil tight.

Dave

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